Drummer vs. Computer

The difference between drummers and drum machines is the pocket...what makes a good groove groove, while a drum machine can play the same groove but not groove....if you know what I mean....

i used to think so too until i heard meshuggah's catch 33
the album has pretty damn good programmed drumming work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfcF5RkCFO0

for example the part that starts at 9:25 (the 11 over 4 poly) has pretty wicked groove imo, unfortunately for us played by a machine
 
I think, first the computer will substitute drummer in the studio. Drummers will stay only for live concerts, for a people who need a visual effect of musicians’ presence. The modern computer technologies can make a very natural drum sound without humans’ mistakes, good time keeping and very important for producers without drummers’ fee.
Interesting to know your reflections about that question…

They tried this 20-30 years ago. Epic fail. What is so damn interesting about perfection? Its boring.
 
Computer isn't interactive and doesn't have feelings.

Careful what you wish for... :)

Like others have mentioned, the human element is still something essential to not only particular genres of music, but to the basic translation of an idea or emotion from performer to listener. Unfortunately, I don't think we've set perimeters on computers to not think or feel, we just haven't come to a point where we can accept the quality being output as human-esque. Someone will eventually program a computer to create music that we won't be able to discern from that made from humans.

Having nothing to do with ageism other than the linear path it takes, younger audiences are surrounded by and accustomed to hearing programmed music more so than previous generations, who accept the technology as being a part of the tools of the trade. Were their purists who revolted against mulit-track recordings and over dubs? I'll bet there was, just as there are folks who have a hard time swallowing the sonic canvas that it today's popular music. I think sometime in the not too distant future, as it's already happening, the drum machine and other forms of electronic instruments in addition to computer assisted "writing", will be just as common place as the Pro-Tools rig, and will be accepted with little resistance.

I believe, (or hope), that music for the sake of art, rather than the bottom line, will continue to be a human experience. There will always be guys like Jack White who can string some wire on a wall and share feelings, there will always be audiences to go watch fellow humans perform a skill or talent on an organic instrument.
 
ChipJohns, I spoke not about nowadays, I spoke about the future that can came soon. The computers technologies are quickly developing industry and nobody knows what will happen “tomorrow”, except Bill Gates )

If it does come to that, then it will be Steve Jobs and not Bill gates.
 
Careful what you wish for... :)

Like others have mentioned, the human element is still something essential to not only particular genres of music, but to the basic translation of an idea or emotion from performer to listener. Unfortunately, I don't think we've set perimeters on computers to not think or feel, we just haven't come to a point where we can accept the quality being output as human-esque. Someone will eventually program a computer to create music that we won't be able to discern from that made from humans.

We could already build a machine which juggles more balls that any human ever could physically do. That still doesn't mean jugglers stop doing what they do. Computers have beaten world champion chess players for years now, we still play chess. There's more to this than the product and the technique.
 
Two questions:

1. Would you still play drums if everyone on this planet played drums?
2. Would you still play drums if no one else played drums?

Do you see where I'm going with this? How does other people's or compter's doings affect your own doings?

I would play. It's how I'm built. Doesn't matter if a computer is better than me at it. Machines are far better in most of the stuff anyways.
 
... Having nothing to do with ageism other than the linear path it takes, younger audiences are surrounded by and accustomed to hearing programmed music more so than previous generations, who accept the technology as being a part of the tools of the trade.

Were their purists who revolted against mulit-track recordings and over dubs? I'll bet there was, just as there are folks who have a hard time swallowing the sonic canvas that it today's popular music. I think sometime in the not too distant future, as it's already happening, the drum machine and other forms of electronic instruments in addition to computer assisted "writing", will be just as common place as the Pro-Tools rig, and will be accepted with little resistance.

I believe, (or hope), that music for the sake of art, rather than the bottom line, will continue to be a human experience. There will always be guys like Jack White who can string some wire on a wall and share feelings, there will always be audiences to go watch fellow humans perform a skill or talent on an organic instrument.

Really well expressed, Jer. I hope digitisation peaks soon and there's something innate within people that will tire of mechanised music. I wouldn't bet on it. Kids are gaming heaps and watching CGI movies - their angle is largely digital. If they go out dancing or have a party it's usually to the strains of robot beats. The actual bands that are shifting units are mostly not very organic.

Older people can feel what is lost through digitisation - all those tasty "maybes" that lie between the 1s and 0s. However, the kids aren't so sensitive to that; they feel like organic music is sloppy and dull. They strike me as preferring their music more tight and glossy.

As Jer suggested, is this anything new? Those raised on acoustic music felt something was lost when bands went electric in the 60s ... lots of hand-wringing by diehards when Miles and Bob Dylan went electric. Yet we find Jimi and Bob's music highly organic. My gut feeling is that people even of my generation were already somewhat desensitised to the human element - tuned into the electric sound.

Kids today are being less sensitive to organic music too, just the next step. Just as metal's become more tight and fast and flatline, the same thing's happened to disco, funk and RnB. The hip hop sound is hugely popular. Big, flatline, perfect and glossy - more virtual, more divorced from the basic sense of stick on skin, fingers on strings, the unprocessed human voice. The evolution isn't finished yet - its all going to get bigger, tighter and glossier yet. Virtual music ...

Is there a threshold of digitisation where people say "Enough! Give me flesh-and-blood humans!"? - where some basic human need must be satisfied that 1s and 0s don't touch?

I don't know ... maybe we'll know in the next decade or two ...
 
I'm also quite sure if you ever could program such grooves as heard on James Brown or Meters albums with all the nyances and microtiming, I'm quite sure you could also almost play them on a drumkit. There's so much happening that untrained ear wouldn't be able to tell what is it that makes them groove so much. It's not the notes.
 
What's with all the flame bait threads lately? Do you just like stirring up shit then arguing or what? Btw, when drummers get replaced by computers, so do guitarists, pianists, vocalists, etc. In other words, "Duuuuuuuuuuh..."
 
Is there a threshold of digitisation where people say "Enough! Give me flesh-and-blood humans!"? - where some basic human need must be satisfied that 1s and 0s don't touch?

I don't know ... maybe we'll know in the next decade or two ...

i agree that programmed drumming is something we better get used to, like it or not. it's definitely a trend that's on the rise.

but have you ever noticed that whenever any of these modern superstar pop acts (kesha, lady gaga, the black eyed peas, etc.) perform they always have a live drummer on stage? they all use programmed drums in the studio but even they know that in a live situation, there's nothing like having real humans up on stage making the music.
 
i agree that programmed drumming is something we better get used to, like it or not. it's definitely a trend that's on the rise.

but have you ever noticed that whenever any of these modern superstar pop acts (kesha, lady gaga, the black eyed peas, etc.) perform they always have a live drummer on stage? they all use programmed drums in the studio but even they know that in a live situation, there's nothing like having real humans up on stage making the music.

Are you sure it's on the rise though? It has been, but there's some backwards movements happening too where music groups that previously would have had electronic drums now have started to use real drummers again. Maybe they are a minority, but we can't know where this situation starts to reach equilibrium. And e-drums are also becoming more and more popular (black eyed peas actually use e-drums live too). I have had this theory that urbanization has been holding us back as drummers for a while now. It's not easy for everyone to practice acoustic drums in the cities. But that problem starts to be solved with e-drums. So who knows what'll happen.
 
i agree that programmed drumming is something we better get used to, like it or not. it's definitely a trend that's on the rise.

but have you ever noticed that whenever any of these modern superstar pop acts (kesha, lady gaga, the black eyed peas, etc.) perform they always have a live drummer on stage? they all use programmed drums in the studio but even they know that in a live situation, there's nothing like having real humans up on stage making the music.

'They have been programming drums since the late 70's/early 80's. I don't see anyone with half a mind for music embracing machines. Only the mindless bubble gum machines generating noise for the equally clueless minions who steal it.
 
as a matter of fact, i was just offered a job programming drums for a promo video. i'm gonna do it! if you can't beat the robots, join 'em i say!
 
average music lover who listens to studio recorded music that he or she enjoys doesnt even care how the drum tracks were recorded!!...humans or robots.... feelings or no feelings..lol.... whats the difference?
 
average music lover who listens to studio recorded music that he or she enjoys doesnt even care how the drum tracks were recorded!!...humans or robots.... feelings or no feelings..lol.... whats the difference?

That's not right. Heard about Indie-music? It's becoming more and more popular. It may be true that they dont care about how it was recorded, but I'm pretty sure they care about how it feels. The "average" listener as you call it, listens to music in context to their own mood. Happy = Pop-tunes with Katy Perry or Lady Gaga, Sad = Dudes with clunky guitars. I would think they would mind if there were robotic electro-drums in the latter example.
 
ChipJohns, I spoke not about nowadays, I spoke about the future that can came soon. The computers technologies are quickly developing industry and nobody knows what will happen “tomorrow”, except Bill Gates )

I will concede Chermen. I think I agree with you very, very much, (please, I'm not being sarcastic but sincere!)

I can see things coming to that. What I do see though is an additional "art" form develop. Computer generated music acceptable to the masses. This doesn't mean that the musician will disappear. I feel 600 years from now there will still be orchestras that play classical music. There is nothing like the sound of the masters... That was music, and I think always will be. They may be using an improved upon instrument, however, a musician will still be judged on their musicality, technique, and human abilities...

Only Time will tell. What is even more exciting to me is the thought of things that are still unthought of.... What will be after next...!
 
In terms of very technical playing, the average songwriter isn't going to be able to program that without knowledge of the drum set while using an accomplished drummer would probably easier.

Sure it's easy for programmed drums to be used on mainstream pop songs, but there is always going to be music out there that need so many nuances and greater musical requirements that programming them would be inefficient compared to hiring the right drummer.
 
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