Drummers need to stop comparing techniques and start learning them all!

I'm very excited for you, but for most of us, mastering something as simple as a double stroke roll doesn't just come "naturally". You have to practice and teach your muscles how to properly control the stick. Its called practicing a technique.

Certain figures you can't play without practicing the technique required to play them. Their are many different ways to play the same figures. Breaking out of your comfort zone and learning to feel comfortable with all those techniques can only increase your overall facility on the instrument. You my find techniques that are more comfortable to you than you thought.

Case and point: My relationship with playing heel down on my kick. I used to be a heel up kinda guy, but I decided to learn something new and I've found I like playing heel down much more. If I had never done that because it didn't feel "natural" at first, I would be less of a music than I am now. And now that I am comfortable with both, I can express myself much much fluidly and dynamically on the instrument. Win Win. Why be against that?

I think you are misunderstanding me here

I have practiced double stroke rolls for more hours, months and years than I can count ..... but I never practiced a technique for doing so .
I just did what felt good and natural and what allowed the stick to do what I wanted it to do.

never sat with this or that name technique ... just did what my body naturally did to get those strokes clean and even .... and just happened to turn out to be some sort of version of "open/close"..... completely without intending it to be or chasing after that specific technique

when we chase techniques in my opinion most of us tend to over think our movements and start to focus on if we are playing the technique properly as opposed to do my strokes sound good .... which is the point of a "technique" to begin with

I don't want to sound like I am anti "technique" ... I am not .... I am anti obsessing over all these techniques that people love to name and love to tell you that you are doing them wrong......blah blah blah

if you are comfortable and sound good..... guess what... your technique is fine
if you can develop facilities to make the music you desire to make comfortably without putting a name to every stroke you take with the stick.... you are fine

I come from the school of Elvin Jones ..... and he always told me ....and I quote....

"forget all that shit man and just make music , ya dig?"
 
there was nothing musical about my first two years of playing.


I want to preface this by saying that this is strictly my opinion

but I strongly disagree with this method of teaching

though it is a common one.... it is a highly outdated one

I believe a student should be introduced to a musically based lesson within his or her first 2 or 3 lessons

even if they never leave the pad it should be music based and while they are learning to move the sticks they should subconsciously be soaking in musical phrasing and structure

I understand all this technique talk is very much like discussing politics and religion at a bar.... that is why I usually stay away from it

but this conversation is quite civil so far ...so ...
 
I feel the same about stickings.... we force sticking upon our playing when we should use the ones that feel natural at an early stage

This is interesting, a simple question: when you put a 4-year old in front of a kit from what I've read and heard and experienced 99% of them play open-handed with left-hand on the hi-hat and then switch hands for the ride.

Would you let the kid keep playing left-hand on hi-hat and then play with right hand on the ride even though it make some stuff harder to learn? (You have to first learn it with one combination for the hi-hat and then reverse it for the ride.)
 
This is interesting, a simple question: when you put a 4-year old in front of a kit from what I've read and heard and experienced 99% of them play open-handed with left-hand on the hi-hat and then switch hands for the ride.

Would you let the kid keep playing left-hand on hi-hat and then play with right hand on the ride even though it make some stuff harder to learn? (You have to first learn it with one combination for the hi-hat and then reverse it for the ride.)

if the kid is 4 years old I will basically let him do what he wants if he is having fun

ever try to reason with a 4 year old ?

I generally don't take students under 6 or 7 unless they express a profound interest in music or show abnormal ability or instincts
 
Tony: Logically said and down-to-earth...

so I believe the title of this thread should be .... drummers need to stop worrying so much about all these techniques and use the ones most natural to them and the ones that facilitate making music
 
For me it´s about: Control, Endurance, Feel and just Play the Music.

I let the acrobatics to the flashy machine ones...
 
> WhoisTony? I want to hear and SEE you play…..For all the chatter about your self taught non-technique you proclaim, the proof should be in the pudding…..Lets see you play…...

I am neither "self taught" nor "non technique" .... reading comprehension is a learned skill

and my playing is abundant and easily accessible as I have been playing drums for a living for 20 years

but if you insist on hearing something here is a tiny sample

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOPOqHYr2XQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGM2pQDBmJE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5x_9jY5BZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmfvklnWcg&t=5m24s
 
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I let the acrobatics to the flashy machine ones...

I don't think anyone is advocating being a flashy machine. Myself included.

All I'm trying to say is that stepping out of your comfort zone is healthy and can improve your playing. Especially for beginners, making complex tasks comfortable is the only way you're going to improve.

The Elvin Jones school of just feel it and do it works for some people, but regrettably not everyone. Just playing what's comfortable makes for very stale and stagnant performances. Music will get boring for people who aren't as mentally open as Elvin Jones.

Think about learning a language. The more vocabulary, grammar, and phrasing and structure you know, the better communicator you will be. No matter how uncomfortable it was to differentiate between cinnamon and synonym, you are better speaker and can express yourself with more clarity and efficiency for it. If I had only ever spoken sentences that were comfortable and only learned new words when it was convenient, I can't even imagine how poor a communicator I'd be.

Approaching drumming as a physical skill that requires training and adaptation may be more clinical, but its easier to teach and to learn for broader range of people. Once you have tactile ability with some sticks, you can truly begin to express yourself on the kit. Maximizing your physical abilities gives more head room to explore more methods of expression so ultimately you can be the best drummer you can be.

In the same way cross-training is good for competitive athletes to improve overall performance, exploring different techniques and breaking out of your comfort zone can improve your overall performance on the drums.
 
I don't think anyone is advocating being a flashy machine. Myself included.

All I'm trying to say is that stepping out of your comfort zone is healthy and can improve your playing. Especially for beginners, making complex tasks comfortable is the only way you're going to improve.

The Elvin Jones school of just feel it and do it works for some people, but regrettably not everyone. Just playing what's comfortable makes for very stale and stagnant performances. Music will get boring for people who aren't as mentally open as Elvin Jones.

Think about learn a language. The more vocabulary, grammar, and phrasing and structure you know, the better communicator you will be. No matter uncomfortable it was to differentiate between cinnamon and synonym, you are better speaker and can express yourself with more clarity and efficiency for it. If I had only ever spoken sentences that were comfortable, and only learned new words when it was convenient, I can't even imagine how poor a communicator I'd be.

Approaching drumming as a physical skill that requires training and adaptation may be more clinical, but its easier to teach and to learn for broader range of people. Once you have tactile ability with some sticks, you can truly begin to express yourself on the kit. Maximizing your physical abilities gives more head room to explore more methods of expression and ultimately be the best drummer you can be. In the same way cross-training is good for competitive athletes to improve overall performance, exploring different techniques and breaking out of your comfort zone can improve your overall performance on the drums.

I really like you bro....always have

your posts are always thought out and very well said....as this one is

but I don't see what it all has to do with technique

players who have had what would be considered zero "technique" have accomplished every bit of everything you mentioned here..... its just that the "techniques" they were using didn't have names or come off the hottest latest DVD

musical expression and stepping out of ones comfort zone has nothing to do with technique in my opinion .... it has to do with musical understanding, owning the facilities to express what you wish , and lastly the courage to step "out"

now facilities involve "technique" ..... but we are all too often brainwashed to think that techniques are these coin phrased name brand movements that you can do right or do wrong.... not the case at all

and if someone tells you that you are doing something "wrong" then they are among the name brand brainwashed DVD purchasers of the universe

once a player is of a certain level and you are not making motions that will harm you physically..... you cannot be doing anything "wrong" if it works for you

now before anyone jumps on that wagon.... I own a stack of drum DVDs 8 feet high ..... I just don't see them as the bible .... I see them as information that I pick and choose from based on what works for me
 
players who have had what would be considered zero "technique" have accomplished every bit of everything you mentioned here..... its just that the "techniques" they were using didn't have names or come off the hottest latest DVD
...
once a player is of a certain level and you are not making motions that will harm you physically..... you cannot be doing anything "wrong" if it works for you. and if someone tells you that you are doing something "wrong" then they are among the name brand brainwashed DVD purchasers of the universe

I agree. There is nothing technique-wise that is required to be an excellent musician. And I couldn't care less what's popular or what the "name" of a lick or technique is (That said, if something has a common name, it's nice to know.).

but I don't see what it all has to do with technique

musical expression and stepping out of ones comfort zone has nothing to do with technique in my opinion .... it has to do with musical understanding, owning the facilities to express what you wish , and lastly the courage to step "out"

I'm supporting my position that learning different ways of doing things, even techniques that may feel uncomfortable, rather than just sticking with a techniques that are comfortable, can actually make you more comfortable on the instrument, enhance your musicality, and provide more avenues of expression. "Stepping out" becomes easier when you don't have worry about what you have or don't have the technical ability to play, and I'm not assuming that stepping out requires more technical playing. I'm just saying.. it helps to have head room.

The OP was all about the merits of learning all the techniques you can, versus arguing over which one is best, picking one, and just learning that.

I'm not sure where we got off from that, but yea, that what I read from it. We may not have the same definitions of what "technique" really refers to, and that why we are kinda running circles around each other... arguing semantics is so annoying, haha

I like you too dude. I always learn something from your posts.
 
I guess I'm in the camp of those who don't chase after the "name" techniques. For whatever reason, my body kind of figured those movements out on its own as I tried to expand my chops and vocabulary. I can't speak for others, so maybe the names help for some. I just see it as marketing. It reminds me of the saying about consultants: They take your watch and tell you what time it is.

Just my two cents.
 
I guess I'm in the camp of those who don't chase after the "name" techniques. For whatever reason, my body kind of figured those movements out on its own as I tried to expand my chops and vocabulary. I can't speak for others, so maybe the names help for some. I just see it as marketing. It reminds me of the saying about consultants: They take your watch and tell you what time it is.

Just my two cents.

agreed.... and everything I have said in this thread supports this

so I stand by the theory of ..... no "all techniques" are not necessary

I've said all I need to say in this thread and it has been fun gentlemen .... you're my dudes
 
In my case, pre lessons, the way I worked the stick was a big bottleneck to my drumming. When I was taught a much better way....now I was able to express better what was inside me trying to come out. There's so many paths to the waterfall. In the end, like Tony said, music is the goal, but I sorely needed some guidance as to how to work a drumstick effectively so I could better reproduce the rhythms I hear. The thought of my playing today without the benefit of those lessons makes me shudder.


Technique to me means how I do something. The nuts and bolts of it all....where I hold the stick, with what part of my hand/fingers, the role of my fingers, how I hold my arms, the stroke itself, then the rebound afterwards....the trajectory of the arc of the stick....my total form.....all that stuff and more I've paid much attention to over the years....at practice.

At a gig I never ever think of these things. But at practice I am very much concerned with the way I get around a drumset, 4 way coordination, singles, doubles, keeping in time to the metronome...not really music per se. I prefer to concentrate on making the mechanics of it all as smooth as I can get it so that when I actually do play music with others, it can flow out more or less unimpeded.

Hopefully.

That's just me and I get much satisfaction from it. There's all kinds of ways to spend practice time.

Going down right now for a nice long practice.
 
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! WHOA! Break it up, fellas!

Why WOULDN'T you want to at least explore any techniques which might be applicable to your purposes? If you want to be a better drummer, why wouldn't you check out any "techniques" which might make you a better player, if they apply to your current musical trajectory?

The worst that can happen: you spend some time finding out that a technique isn't for you, but you have an experience to base that opinion on, and you gain insight and perspective about another facet of the drumming world.

The best that can happen: you learn a new technique that you can use to become a better drummer than you would be if you didn't learn the technique.

Do you NEED to learn a bunch of gimmicks to be a great drummer? No. Just look at Larry. :p
 
Where I have doubts is that technique will evolve all by itself if you keep on playing/practicing for a long time. I remember how long it took me to learn Moeller and how ridiculously overexaggerated my motions were at first. Not sure how long it would have taken me until Moeller would have happen naturally.

Same with swivel: I've been working on that one for 1.5 years now and it's still so-so. My experience is (and we're all different of course) I need to get even aware of a certain technique by watching it - typically off a DVD - and then try to imitate it. And the learning process will take a while. I've been addressing a number of techniques specifically and honestly, I guess it would have taken me multiple times to get to the same level if I hadn't kept practicing those techniques on purpose but just playing/practicing in general instead. And as for swivel: The motion started to feel 'natural' no sooner than after several months. And building up speed seems a neverending process. It might come natural to some drummers but what period of time are we talking about - 5-10 years?
 
There is a huge factor that's need to be brought up to the light.
Technique is more important the older you are, kids has a way to figure stuff out, copying others and work out their own great natural technique which grown-up might do eventually as well but what I've learned it takes at around 10 years into the activity before an adult realize some significant they can do differently with their bodymotions.

No wonder you can hear Buddy Rich say he never practiced, if he started that young his brain formed him and his body-motions for the drums. To us that start at an adult age we have to do that formation ourselves and quite consciously to avoid mistakes that could hurt our bodies or limit our musical expression.

Try start playing poker as an adult without study strategies and only learn the rules and you will still be a loser in 5 years afterwards.
Read a few books and you will be a winner in only a year keep it up and you will become a professional in 10 years.

How is this possible? Because the books are written by pro's playing for 20-50 years and are teaching techniques that they learned and explains them so you learn them in a few weeks or months instead of learning on your own losing experiences after a decade...

I see drum-technique the same way. Stuff that you can either figure out on your own after a few years(or months depending on age) or learn in a few weeks from lessons.
 
What's technique?

Technique is a way of carrying out a particular task, esp. the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.

So everything we do.. from how your arm sets up a fat backbeat, to how our fingers control the stick when you do open rolls, how your upper body reacts when you move around the kit...
 
totally disagree

learning "all techniques" is a complete waste of time

play the way you feel comfortable and focus on making the most musical sound with your instrument

our end result should be to make music not to be a technician

go watch Art Blakey play .... by todays standards the mans technique was awful.....but it worked amazingly well for him ... he is one of the most musical drummers to ever breathe our air

so I believe the title of this thread should be .... drummers need to stop worrying so much about all these techniques and use the ones most natural to them and the ones that facilitate making music

I couldn't agree more.
 
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