An attempt at a policy change here

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Just an observation here. But it seems that Guru drums has gotten more advertising in this thread than any Andy could have paid for. Oh, the irony.
 
.... From now on, I'm happy to pass on general advice if it's sought, but from Andy the simple rock drummer, not Andy the drum company owner. Nor will there be any further insight into new technologies/processes/thinking, or back stories....

Andy.


I hope you don't follow through on that too rigidly. I enjoyed when you posted about stuff and asked for input. Your lugs and plating threads got me to examine and appreciate drum hardware from an aesthetic, as well as practical viewpoint.

Keep being yourself - only the new guys mind.

LOL
 
I have been on here about a year and learned quite a bit about various things. Things I am interested in and things I am not interested in. For example the threat about free floating design flaws . Andy gave the man his opinion and what guru (yes, I said the name) tried to get it better and it rang a bell. Basically , he said "been there, done that" and that gave me a insight on free floating drums (not that I would ever buy one). It kinda "explains to me" why drums are made the way they are made today.
 
Ok, after catching up on this thread this morning, I'm overwhelmed by the responses supporting my activities here. Quite humbling & slightly embarrassing TBH. This is not a fuss I asked for or courted. I've taken a decision based on a lot of considerations, but those are personal to me. The one thing I absolutely don't want, is for my decision to skew or otherwise influence how people interface with this forum. Most specifically, how others involved in the industry do so.

I happen to believe that most here with inside industry interest have a great deal to offer. They're part of the balance that makes this forum different to others. So long as their input is as non partisan as it's reasonable to be, I don't see an issue. Let's take Bermuda as a prime example. We all know of his relationship with Ludwig, & he provides insights into activities & new stuff happening from time to time, but also notice how he's quick to point out failings too. That readiness to take a non partisan stance when it's clearly not in his personal interest to do so, engenders respect for his opinion as having value. If other drum (or whatever industry related wares) companies want to chime in here, I view that as being for the greater good. It's pretty obvious when their interest is in one direction only, & thus easy to ignore if you're so inclined. The flip side is that it opens up a direct connection to decision makers that many members may find useful, or at least, interesting. Frankly speaking, be grateful that busy industry insiders actually spare the time to interface with a forum in a meaningful way.

Then there's the subject of disclosure. Ask yourselves this. How many members of various forums actually have some commercial interest but don't declare it? Such members would be free to engage in constant subtle marketing activities without their motives ever being questioned. If you're seeking out "smart" marketing on forums, that's damn smart IMO. Let's also examine the cost vs. benefit of truly mounting an intentional program of marketing on a forum under the guise of general participation. There's no way that's ever going to pay off. When I think of the time I put into background assistance on here (the stuff you guys never see, generally via PM's with individuals), & the hard won technical features I actually let go freely when there's absolutely no benefit to me whatsoever, it's close to a one way street alright, but not in the direction you would first believe. Heck, I've even passed on proprietary R&D to members for them to freely pass on to the other drum company that's building their kit!

I'm glad, in some ways that this subject was raised. It's encouraged me to examine what I'm really doing here. My posts here have only ever been on the basis of being happy & enthusiastic about what I'm doing. The simple pleasure of sharing good news, & seeing others perceive value in it. No different to any other member sharing good news & experiences. From now on, I'm happy to pass on general advice if it's sought, but from Andy the simple rock drummer, not Andy the drum company owner. Nor will there be any further insight into new technologies/processes/thinking, or back stories. With the exception of a few close contacts & existing customers, anyone who's interested in what I'm up to can find out through the normal channels, just like every other company out there.

As I've taken this decision, I forego the right to post up pictures & other stuff that can be perceived as having an intentional marketing element. It's a shame really, but in light of a growing body of opinion I'm sensing, it's the only rational choice, & one that will benefit me for a change. This leaves me free to post as the drummer I am without having to think about perceptions outside of my credibility as a player, & frees up time for me to do things that actually benefit me & my company. To repeat, this is a personal decision, & should in no way affect others in my position who are contemplating contributions to the forum.

I want to close by thanking all those who have contributed to the richness of what we've created. Input from members here has been very useful, & I hope those who've contributed feel that value & our appreciation.

Andy.

Andy, as usual an extremely well balances and self depreciating response.

I have to say though that this has affected how I view the forum. Regardless of how the opinion of Shemp was put forward, I can't help but feel that the right of the individual to complain has been put infront of the rights of the other members of the forum to be informed and to keep up to date with your developments. Shemp says he has the right to bring this up, and while I don't dispute this, rights also come with responsibilities.

You have clearly examined your rights and taken your responsibilities seriously and I applaud you for that, but I am angry that you were placed in that position in the first place. Just like it was in the 70's in the UK with Mary Whitehouse et al, and TV decency, the computer has an off button- if you don't want to read something then simply don't.

I for one will miss the updates and the requests for feedback.

I can't help but feel that the forum is the loser in all of this in the end.
 
I feel let down that Andy voluntarily let an asshole prevail here. I wish Andy would have flicked that bloodsucking mosquito right off. Instead, the place just lost a great asset, Andy's baby. Oh yea, that's a much better situation than we had before... NOT. We were going along nicely for years, and along comes one guy who, for me, totally wrecked the vibe here, and he gets to get away scott-free for that. Meanwhile the rest of us get robbed, no policy is changed, and he gets to sit there in all his self righteousness and grin. I'd like to see him run out of this particular town on a rail for the damage and slander he's caused here. I wish the mods would make an example of him for attacking probably the most respected member here, not to mention the damage to the attitude of the forum as a whole. I can't even stand to see his presence here, he repulses me now. From where I'm sitting I think he is an attention seeking, self righteous, hypocritical, uncaring individual who is probably getting off how he caused such a ruckus, and who should be shown the door for what he did.

Meanwhile every other person on here who builds anything to do with drums, will carry on as they always have, sharing news. Are we to expect repeats of this scenario when someone else talks about their products? If not, why the selectivity? If so, when are we going to put our collective foot down? Why isn't Kelly Brady being harangued? Shemp? Is she next?

IDK, you watch TV, you get advertised to. Same with YT, or the radio, or walking down the street seeing billboards...taking a whiz in a bar bathroom. Sitting at a bar, so many brand names! There is an advertising banner scrolling across the top of the DW window. Why is THAT not a problem? I really don't get it. How can someone really be that offended when everywhere you look there are ads? I don't get it. How do we know shemp doesn't have a deal with the brands in his sig? We don't. So it's OK for him to advertise but not anyone else. Hypocrites make me so mad I want to fight.

I don't see anyone else being hassled. Maybe it's just a matter of time. Shemp doesn't seem to care, not one bit, that a lot of people, I'm sure the overwhelming majority, feel robbed. He stated quite clearly that he doesn't care what people think of him. Don't psychopaths share that same trait? There seems to be not one bit of remorse from shemp that a lot of people rightfully feel robbed. Man if I did what he did, and so many people felt as strongly as they do, I know I would probably realize I did a bad thing and try and apologize, at the very least. I see none of that sentiment here. You really have to ask yourself why that is. I think secretly, he is loving all the attention. Congratulations shemp, you are the first person here who I actually can't stand and will go out of my way to hassle now. You can't throw an egg at a work of art and get away with it. You can't accuse my friend and not expect backlash.

Guru is gone from the forum, Andy won't reverse, but we get shemp as a consulation prize.

Oh joy.

Ban the shemp.
 
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I'd like to thank shemp for all he has done. A bland mediocrity on this forum is exactly the culture we need here.

I know that I personally hope I don't learn anything when I use the internet nowadays. I participate in this forum only to have meaningless, uninformed conversation with strangers that I wish I know less about. Talk of creative thinking only makes me anxious and frightened. The thinly veiled marketing that all of those treasonous vile beings must be plotting. I for one think that anyone involved in any promotional activities whether it be for one's self, charitable, or commercial, should be silenced across the entire internet itself. YouTube, Reddit, even Drummerworld: these places are sucking vortexes of self-righteous, egotistical punks who only think and talk about themselves or products they have a vested interest in..... I feel the sea of ulterior motives creeping up on me. Is it just my imagination? or is every word from anyone who wants to make a positive difference in a community and an industry just clawing for my money and attention? OH THE TYRANNY! What is the internet for anyway?! Being a part of an supportive community of smart enthusiasts and professionals sharing ideas and information is a sign that we're all spiraling to our own self destruction. RIP Guru drums. RIP Drummerworld. Don't believe all the awesome things said about this forum by members and professionals alike; don't even believe what they say about the internet, about your life.. its all a viscious ploy thinly veiled as innocence and ignorance. But I see through it. Am I the only one? The ominous they picking and prodding at me with their eyes, exploiting my interests and what I hold most dear. Is there anything I can call my own anymore?! THEY don't own me. THEY can't control me. But THEY won't stop marketing me! Shemp: you and I can take them together, uniting forces to tear down the vile veil, vilify this virus, and vindicate ourselves for all that we hold dear: mediocrity, ineptitude, and inefficiency. Let's stop the conversation! so that the truths we receive only come from magazine advertisements, tv commercials, and impersonal celebrity endorsements--that's the kind of bought enthusiasm that we need more of in the world.


"Ode to Shemp"
-wsabol, Drummerworld, 12/6/2013
Copyrighted/Trademarked
www.wsabol.com * AS SEEN ON TV!
www.youtube.com/wsabol * NOW FEATURING BILLY MAYS!
www.facebook.com/wsabol
- Check us out next year at LDS!!
!! YES !!
 
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I have wrestled with this topic for a long time. It is a challenge to find a balance between participating in the online community and discussing / presenting my products. It seems that without fail, it results on unwanted controversy and often times pure nonsense.

This is one reason why I limit my overall participation in forums outside of drumsmith.com. Even though Bernhard is a very good friend and I am invited to participate, I read often, but post rarely.

I would like to be able to share the work that I do and products that I am excited about. it comes not from a place of...base commercial / guerrilla advertising / shilling. It comes from my passion about what I do. I appreciate feedback and more than the possibility of interesting anyone in one of my products, it helps me make better drums.

I'd like to be able to share things like this without interrupting the flow of conversation in the topic areas. If there was a "gear" section for sharing new products etc, I would surely post there frequently.

Ronn
 
Just an observation here. But it seems that Guru drums has gotten more advertising in this thread than any Andy could have paid for. Oh, the irony.
But publicity of the worst kind IMO. This is not why I pursued a passion.

I feel let down-
Ban the shemp.
I'm sorry you feel I've let you down Larry. That's absolutely the last thing I want, but let me make this as clear as I can - shemp is but one of many here who think the same way. He had the balls to come out & say it. I have my detractors here. They don't like what I do, or what I stand for. That's fine, as it mirrors real life. I have no interest in understanding why, frankly I haven't got the time to be thinking too hard about such things. I'm a big boy, & can take it. I meant what I said about re-evaluating my presence here. Shemp is not the cause, at worst, he was one in a long line that have recently surfaced. No disrespect to shemp, but it takes someone or something much bigger than him to make me do something against my better judgement.

Let's stop the conversation! so that the truths we receive only come from magazine advertisements, tv commercials, and impersonal celebrity endorsements--that's the kind of bought enthusiasm that we need more of in the world.
A succinct view of the condition we're already in I'm afraid :(
 
Thank you Ron. I would like to see you be able to speak freely too, in a big way. After all, this is a drum forum, and we actually have a need for the products we use. Why conversation about those products would be off limits is beyond me.

So it's OK for me to talk about the functionality of a Dunnett strainer but it's not OK for the guy building them to comment. That's discrimination.

I want to know about all the new products and/or improvements to existing products straight from the horses mouth. But I guess that's asking to much in a world where shemp resides.

Andy what gets me is you are catering to a few loose cannons, while the rest of the forum....your real friends, are mourning the loss.

You cannot please everybody, why not try and please the ones who really care about you instead of the ones who don't?
 
The difference, Shemp, is that Andy built his reputation on here long before he was involved in Guru drums. If it was a new poster aggressively marketing, it would be different. Neither was the case.

That is not a cogent point or application...it does not matter what the genesis is...this is not a popularity contest...its a logical discussion that says that someone was marketing their product through use of a community

The answer is a resounding yes....the rest is gratuitous information...

I think the point you are missing is that it is not gratuitous information; it is the human aspect of this argument. This is not a formal place built on rules. It is a discussion forum based around drums, and the forum is made what it is due to the people here. It is a people based forum. It seems to me like you just want to prove how clever you are by trying to use logic to prove your opinion.

Congrats, logic states you are correct. It doesn't take a genious to work that out.

However, I'm sorry to inform you that we are not machines, and thus are not bound by the rules affecting such a machine. We have discretion and reason and can see the real motivation behind Andy's post(s), whether as a side affect it helps to market his product or not. To be frank, I don't think anyone cares if it has this side affect - so what if it does? I could happily make that sacrifice (whatever it is I'm sacrificing?) to keep the conversation open and natural.

Why do you want to be such a pedant about this and spoil what we have going here? It's like a foreign power going into a country to correct something they see as wrong, but that the populus actually wants. Are you here to change our views? Correct our thinking maybe?

We all know Andy was not peddelling; he genuinly wanted feedback about the site which we would be happy to give because of our human level relationship with him. It is absolutely relevant, more so than any logic that gives the answer that he may be bending the rules a little. We understand the kind of person he is.

You may think that is superfluous information - but I personally don't want to live in a world where the rules are absolute, decided by one person because *that single person* thinks its the correct rule, and where we are too stupid to have discretion.

If you want a place like that, then please go and create it. You can apply your rules at your hearts content there. But please don't tell the community here how things should be; it is not your place to say. It is up to the majority. Call that mob mentality if you like, or community spirit.

Sorry to go on - I just don't understand all this, life is too short. How can someone care so much if someone wants feedback on their website that may as a side affect promote their business a little? A small business at that, which as a community we are happy to help.
 
By virtue of the fact that I use my real name...am I guilty of "marketing" by merely commenting?

Is "marketing" a bad thing?

If I choose to share an image of one of my products, I assume that would be interpreted as "marketing".

If someone else chooses to share an image of one of my products that is ____________?

Do we enjoy seeing new products and ideas?

Things to ponder...
 
Shemp to me this is an opportunity for you to gain a little wisdom. I have learned you really can't change everything or anyone to the way you might like it or think it should be. I think it is rather presumptuous of you after just joining the site to make the claims you have made.

The approach could have been to simply ask the mods if it makes sense to have an area for this type of discussion. To argue for a principle that on its own may have some merit but ignores the value brought by the "indescretion" is not making things better.
 
Ostensibly, on any forum, members that are business owners should not be posting in a way that promotes their product....it is built in free marketing. No matter how it is presented or what guise it may be under it is still marketing. That's what businesses have websites for and a marketing budget.

A business owner can just as well expound on their products and innovations and events on their own site...and the motivated individuals that want to learn about it can go there....that is why companies have their OWN forums....for that express purpose.

My opinion is that people should not be selling or marketing on forums like this no matter how it is presented. Again, an opinion....

This isn't a black and white issue,as you try to make it appear.You just keep repeating the same uninsightful opinion over and over,as if you even need to re convince yourself,that it's better to be right than popular.It's an opinion........it's not the law.

Maybe you should have laid back a bit more.before trying to play forum police,and do the mods job for them.If you didn't like something you saw or read,why not just ignore it?I see this all the time.A new member challenges the status quo,to be noticed,and attempts to assert his power,by possibly dividing the membership into at least two camps,one of which to take charge of.

Some people need to feel that the're in charge,no matter what the're doing.

Bravo,nicely played,except that the line behind you dosen't seem to have many of us standing there.

Post hoc,ergo propter hoc

This still comes down to you stating you have a valid opinion,which I don't believe you do,because you simply,don't have enough information to form a valid opinion.This more about you being.... right.You might as well have an opinion that space aliens ,shot RFK,that would prehaps be even more valid

To that I say,you have your way,we have our way,as far as the right way,or the correct way,the only way....that dosen't exist.

Steve B
 
Hey Ronn, can you teach me how to get some dings out of my stainless steel floor tom? :)

I find it very valuable to have professionals "market" here, but that's just me. In the end, it is Bernhard's sandbox, and we are all guests.
 
By virtue of the fact that I use my real name...am I guilty of "marketing" by merely commenting?

Is "marketing" a bad thing?

If I choose to share an image of one of my products, I assume that would be interpreted as "marketing".

If someone else chooses to share an image of one of my products that is ____________?

Do we enjoy seeing new products and ideas?

Things to ponder...

It seems clear to all but a few, Ronn, that the presence of people such as yourself and Andy is a benefit to the community, not a detriment.

Thanks for commenting here, and PLEASE post a pic of one of your gorgeous snares. Myself, I have a hankering for a Walnut MonoPly...
 
I'm saddened to learn that one of this board's most helpful and frankly, inspirational members, will be changing his level of participation here. Andy, Kelly, Bermuda, Ronn, and others who inform us about the products they're affiliated with, have handled themselves with class. I've never felt a hard sell from any of them. They've provided us with valuable information about their products that we'd never get from a visit to their websites. Pride oozed from every post, as it should. DW forum members are smart enough to assess things for ourselves and we've had a pretty good ability to self-police better than any mod can. Shove product down our throats in a shameless manner and you will be ignored.

It's a shame that what has been such a valuable resource for me about all things drumming will be taking a turn for the worse. For the record, I've always been a Curly Joe fan.
 
why is anyone letting this cat who is not even a month into his membership to pull such weight ?

most of us see Andy as a friend and insist on hearing about and seeing his business ventures.

nothing personal Shemp (who is my favorite stooge by the way ) but you deserve to be tar and feathered for this spat you have created
 
Mr. Castiglioni has spoken... enough said.

Andy and Shemp are drummers... and drummers stick together, above all.

The boss has spoken and I will share his thoughts. Thank you for keeping it fairly civil, and now it is time to move on. We will all have differing opinions on many subjects but for now here is the boss's thought:

a new Forum section: NO. In the past we had some good ideas to make a section for this and that - just to find out at the end, it starts to be confusing - keep it simple is my opinion the way to go... Bernhard.
 
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