Can you read? Elvin couldn't?

Funky Crêpe

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
I was wondering ( i suppose for the more seasoned drummers) has reading ever been very helpful? Like, any situations where you would have fallen on your ass if you couldn't? Tell us your stories! :) Just wondering because I was talking to a guy at a college near me and his teacher was the guy who taught elvin how to play to scores, because he couldn't read a note. Well, this is my first question, my second is...

i have seen a few pieces where elvin has the sheet music in front of him, he seemed like a real genuine nice honest person, and unless he was trying to look more professional, why have it up? Think he was self conscious? He was playing at such a standard for so long, why not learn?
 
I don't see why learning to read is such a nuisance, its VERY simple. Even learning how to barely read can be helpful in learning to play (at least for me). Then again, if you improv or just have natural feel, i can see why some never learn.
 
I wish I could read note. I guess if you are a session player or sit in with an orchestra it would be manditory. Even though I am primarily a "by ear" player I have learned to make notation on new songs lyric sheets just to help me with fills and changes within a song. I can't say I have found myself in any reading situations that I couldn't get through because I already knew the songs.

Not sure about Elvin, I'm sure that will be up for debate.
 
Learning to read is as important as any other tool in your "musical tool box"....... so VERY helpful indeed.

I've been in MANY situations where i've had to read and interpret new charts on the bandstand or sometimes at short notice at one reh. before an important show.... no time to use just one's big ears only to get you through the gig. Having a chart on stage is no big deal in those situations if still getting a concept together or general understanding {form, meter/time changes etc..} for certain music at hand you may not have a previous understanding about be it a specific arrangement of a know tune or original music.

Elvin having a chart on stage is no big deal. Like I say I get handed charts all the time for certain musical projects by leaders of certain bands i'm in and new people I work with in my travels. Part and parcel with the territory for any freelance pro musician.....

I will add if I have time I will try to memorize the music off the paper to the best of my ability to better internalize it at the performance...sometimes time won't allow for that so best to have the chart handy and a big YES to knowing how to read and interpret it under those conditions. The more you do that the better you get at it over time....experience!
 
Sammy Nestico talked about a time when he brought in some arrangements for Buddy Rich's band. Buddy Rich could not read music so he had another drummer run through the charts with the band while he listened. This is a true story.

The band ran through the first chart and then Buddy got on the drums and nailed the thing. Nestico says that it was amazing.

BUT. Nobody is Buddy Rich. And there just simply isn't any reason to not learn to read music. It's not that big a deal, I don't know why people think it is. It's easy!

If you don't read music you will never, ever, work as a studio drummer, you'll never work in musicals, you'll never get any real money calls at all. Nothing. The only hope you'll have is to get in a band that manages to make a little money playing in bars or to be lucky enough to be in a band that makes it big. Yeah right.

Is this still being debated? Learn to read music for crying out loud!
 
con struct said:
Sammy Nestico talked about a time when he brought in some arrangements for Buddy Rich's band. Buddy Rich could not read music so he had another drummer run through the charts with the band while he listened. This is a true story.

The band ran through the first chart and then Buddy got on the drums and nailed the thing. Nestico says that it was amazing.

BUT. Nobody is Buddy Rich. And there just simply isn't any reason to not learn to read music. It's not that big a deal, I don't know why people think it is. It's easy!

If you don't read music you will never, ever, work as a studio drummer, you'll never work in musicals, you'll never get any real money calls at all. Nothing. The only hope you'll have is to get in a band that manages to make a little money playing in bars or to be lucky enough to be in a band that makes it big.

Is this still being debated? Learn to read music for crying out loud!
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Quite right Jay... Buddy was a freak and the rest of us are mere mortals.

For many situations band leaders and musical contractors DON'T have time to deal with people who can't maximize on the situation at hand...IE: can't read. They don't have time to constantly have to go over at times difficult music for a non-reader to try to pick up and memorize. You want the higher paying gigs on stage or in the studio?....... competition out there is fierce so BE PREPARED to your best advantage is my sage advice too.
 
The most useful thing that I ever did was to learn how to read!
I'm not a sight reader or anything like that. I am a slow reader.

The biggest problem that I have is working with people who can't read.
I can't communicate with them at practice because they don't understand what I am talking about.

The conversation always goes something like this,
"Play it this way, "You know, Da...Da..Da.Da... Da"
 
In the jazz band at my school I read music half of the time. The scores we use are mostly swing with a ton of repeats. Some songs that have timing issues are easier if I had the music out but otherwise it never gets looked at. There are times that I would have it out thinking that I need it, but later I catch myself wondering what measure the band is in.

Bottom line, it isn't a big necessity to learn how to read music, but it can help for a few issues. There also isn't any reason to not learn how to read.
 
bobdadruma said:
The biggest problem that I have is working with people who can't read.
I can't communicate with them at practice because they don't understand what I am talking about.
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I forgot about that! It is pretty irritating to play with people who can't read. It sometimes makes me feel smarter when I know I'm playing it right and they struggle with something that just takes a little effort.
 
Maybe Elvin couldn't sight read the whole drum score, but I'd bet he could count bars and recognize breaks, rests, and the space consumed by a fill.

I never got good at sight reading on melodic instruments (to my own downfall) and drum notation drives me crazy. But I can sight read time. So if there's a score in front of me I can follow all the breaks and hits, but I wouldn't be able to play the arranged fills or complex patterns just following along.

I am making more of an effort though. At a clinic I went to years ago, Frank Gambale said that not being able to read music was like not being able to read written words. Being illiterate meant that there was a whole world of music out there that was beyond your reach. And then he told a room full of guitar players that in his experience of countless sessions, the guitar parts were never written out in tableture.
 
Gethsemane said:
Bottom line, it isn't a big necessity to learn how to read music, but it can help for a few issues.
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The actual real bottom line is this: why in the world would anyone make the choice to limit themselves? That's something I will never get.

Look here, if it isn't necessary to someone to be able to read music then it's obviously not necessary to them to be the best musician they can be.

Unbelievable that this is still being debated.

There have been several threads here about how drummers don't like being considered the dumb ones in the band, something along those lines. Well hell, man, the answer is to make it a point to know as much if not more about music than anyone you'll ever play with. Duh!

This kind of thing makes me cross, sorry. There is no excuse for being ignorant, none at all.
 
Whenever I have an idea for a beat, I write it up on some good old percussion sheet music. It makes it easier to interpret it when you can visually take it in, instead of relying on the mouths of your band mates or their lack of rhythmic understanding.

Learn how to read.
 
When I am learning a song, I listen to it and I try to picture the musical notation of the beat in my mind.
I don't know how people that can't read do it!
 
con struct said:
The actual real bottom line is this: why in the world would anyone make the choice to limit themselves? That's something I will never get.

Look here, if it isn't necessary to someone to be able to read music then it's obviously not necessary to them to be the best musician they can be.

Unbelievable that this is still being debated.
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Again agreed...there is no debate for me. Case in point a bass player is in town for a short stretch to reh. for a big jazz fest concert coming up in a few weeks. Leaders calls the guys together for this key reh well everyone is available to learn ALL new music...difficult at times music.

Outcome: EVERYONE is focused on the task at hand and EVERYONE knows how to read to get down to focusing on the new material on the spot. No time for BS......

End result: productive reh. with all involved having charts to talk home with them to use as a reference point to remind them what is at hand when we meet up on stage to refresh our memory of what was discussed with noted changes etc... and learned using a written reference point.

This is the NORMAL way of life for pro players....especially freelancers doing this in a variety of these types of pro situations. Can't read and be totally productive under the stress of these types of time limited situations?....then the leader has to move on to someone who is equipped with their musical "tool box" to do so.... REALITY folks.
 
A few weeks ago at a gig the guitar player messed up and he didn't play his lead as he usually does.
There is a full measure stop at the end of his eight measure lead.
I stopped on eight because I counted out my part while he played his lead.

Our bass player who plays by ear missed the stop because he depends on hearing the lead to cue the stop.
When he didn't hear the normal lead he was lost!

It is because I know how to read music that allowed me to hit the stop.
I think in terms of notes and measures.
It doesn't matter to me what is being played.
I heard the guitar player playing something different but it didn't make any difference to me because I knew when to stop.
 
Steamer said:
Again agreed...there is no debate for me. Case in point a bass player is in town for a short stretch to reh. for a big jazz fest concert coming up in a few weeks. Leaders calls the guys together for this key reh well everyone is available to learn ALL new music...difficult at times music.

Outcome: EVERYONE is focused on the task at hand and EVERYONE knows how to read to get down to focusing on the new material on the spot. No time for BS......

End result: productive reh. with all involved having charts to talk home with them to use as a reference point to remind them what is at hand when we meet up on stage to refresh our memory of what was discussed with noted changes etc... and learned using a written reference point.

This is the NORMAL way of life for pro players....especially freelancers doing this in a variety of these types of pro situations. Can't read and be totally productive under the stress of these types of time limited situations?....then the leader has to move on to someone who is equipped with their musical "tool box" to do so.... REALITY folks.
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Agreed. As a professional of 20+ years, most band leaders assume you read music and are put off if you don't. Maybe 50 years ago you could specialize, just play "jam session" type gigs and get by, but now one needs to know everything-not just reading, but also READING. By that I mean assessing the situation, know what's called for musically and socially, hearing where the music is about to go, what it needs, when to ask questions and when to shut up and listen. I'm sure some people have legitmate reasons for not having reading ability (like vision problems) but honestly, if someone is too lazy to learn to read, they're probably not dedicated enough to reach their potential as a musician.
 
At PIT, reading was stressed to the nth degree. We'd read pages upside down, backwards, every which way.

In the real world, between original bands, cover bands, free lancing, and bits of studio work, I never came into a situation where I had to read. Ever. Not even once.

Not to say that it's not still been useful. Looking through Modern Drummer or other such magazines, it's nice to be able to read the exercises and/or follow along the transcriptions. On occasions while learning new songs, I might write out a beat or make a small chart for myself.

And as I got into programming, midi, engineering and bits of producing, ok, I'm not reading per se, but it would be impossible to do any of it if I didn't understand time signatures, note values and bar lines.

So while I've never been lucky enough to get a chart handed to me, I'm still glad I learned how to read. I can't imagine having NOT learned.
 
i play a lot of instruments and never learned how to read music, actually i did in grade school but have long since forgotten. i can play guitar by ear as well as bass, violin, cello, viola, piano not so much by ear but i can fake it pretty good. i just started drum lessons 2 months back and the first thing my teacher did was teach me how to read, took me about 10 minutes to understand what i was looking at and be able to work my way threw it and sight read some things. 2 months now i can pretty much sight read everything he gives me, some of the symbols i still need to look back to remember what they mean but not very many and getting fewer and fewer everyday.

is it important? i can safely say if he didn't teach me to read right off the bat it would be real hard for me to know exactly what i was supposed to be playing or be able to practice what i needed to for the next lesson, practically impossible really. i never thought it was important before since i got by with out it for so long and the few times i did try to learn it looked so complicated i just pushed it aside and kept on going the same old way i did before. honestly i doubt i could be learning half the things as quickly as i am if i hadn't learned.

so yeah i think it's important....
 
How do you practice what you don't already know if you don't know how to read about the new things you could practice?
 
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