Tempos - Too Fast?

DrummerCA35

Senior Member
I'm playing in a R&B/Disco/Funk/Pop/Rock cover band.

It seems to me there is frequently a push/pull on tempos. I prefer to play them in the pocket, grooving, and often closer to the original recorded tempos. Or, maybe sped up to a degree for the excitement and energy of live playing. In some cases, even the original band speeds up some songs for live performances.

I count off most songs, so if it starts too fast it's my responsibility. Sometimes, though, even when I count it off at one tempo (or play the intro beat), the keys player often speeds it up, or tries to, and it turns into a situation where I'm staying at the original tempo (and the bass player too) and the keys player is running away. This happens frequently on Stevie Wonder's "Superstitious" that we play. I've mentioned it to him and it still seems to happen.

On some songs, the keys player originally starts the song (say on "Feeling Allright" by Joe Cocker). That's one, where if it's too fast it sounds and feels terrible. So...I asked if I could just start the tune by playing a beat. (I play a beat instead of trying to simulate congas.) This worked really well.

On some songs, the guitar player starts the tune. Say "The Middle" by Jimmy Eat World. That's a fast song to begin with, and he starts it even faster (despite talking to him about it) and I've often said "f-ck it" and just gone with it, but it sounds like crap to me, played too fast.

On a few other tunes, the singer can't sing in the original key, he takes it down a few steps. They asked me to count off a few songs faster to "compensate for the lower key." One example is Bruno Mars' "Locked out of Heaven." We were doing it hella fast (by the request of the singer) but I started doing it slower, to where it is faster than the recording, but not runaway fast.

On the whole, the set list is really grooving, we played our first gig last weekend and it went great. There are, however, some songs that I think are too fast, but if the rest of the band wants it that way (and these are in the minority) I've tried to compromise. But when some songs are too fast it feels bad to play. As far as the singer is concerned, he'd probably be happy if everything were faster.

Have you guys run into this? How have you dealt with it? Do you guys ever agree on the BPM and use some kind of BPM machine as a guide to kick off the tune?

Thanks for any input.
 
All the time, yes. The key is to work with musicians that understand how to correct and/or be corrected. There is nothing wrong with discussing this stuff on the front end or snapping it out at a gig...regular performers will understand how to work within this framework and not be offended. They will give and take.

Being a tempo Nazi is good...why not play the song in it's original form and make it feel true to the recording?

Yes the Middle is a speedy song....in contrast to Kryptonite which is surprisingly "slower", not slow, but deliberate.... especially in the beginning with the guitar and marching snare style figure. These songs sound like ass if they are not performed at the original tempo.

I really think the bottom line is to do the homework during rehearsal and discuss the tempos...I would not necessarily whip out a metronome, but I would listen as a group. Being corrected or applying the correction is all part of the team effort and results in a better BAND sound.

Shitcan those musicians who think they are gods gift to their instrument and do not understand how to work within a team construct...this is the root of the problem. Experienced musicians understand that it is ok to be corrected or bark out a correction. Great results, no drama.
 
A lot of times, people don't know how they sound/come across to the audience. I'd say record gigs and rehearsals and listen back as a band. This would be much better than trying to make your case and you pointing out their shortcomings. They need to be able to hear the band while not playing. It'll work way better if they are able to spot the problem themselves, instead of being told what they are doing "wrong".

Now if everything sounds fine to them when it's still too fast...I have nothing. Hopefully they will hear the error of their ways. A discussion about feel would be something I'd bring up to them. Like how a song can lose the feel if it's too fast or too slow.

Speeding a song up because they had to drop the key down is amateur at best. That's the wackiest thing I've heard in a while.

Maybe inform the guys that tempo...for a drummer...is mission critical. It's huge and important and needs to be understood by all. Maybe they don't fully understand how critical the right tempo is. Rather than pointing out their failings, I think you band needs a band discussion on just how critically important the proper tempo is. It's what the band needs to work on...like right now.

Appeal to their sense of pride. "You want the band to come across as awesome right? That can't happen when the feel of the song is tromped on.
 
Workable tempos are crucial to a song (and band's) success. Most songs have a fairly narrow tempo range in which they sound and feel good. A few BPM one side or the other of that range may result in a song that's no longer danceable, enjoyable, or easily playable.

There's nothing wrong with establishing good tempos in rehearsal and verifying by recording them for an objective assessment. Players have a distorted view of what the tempo is when they're actually playing, typically that a song feels slow, so they arbitrarily speed it up. Then use a metronome or app to call up those specific tempos in order to count-off at the pre-determined speed. Of course, once the song is started correctly, it's up to everyone - not just the drummer - to keep the song in time.

Bermuda
 
Of course, once the song is started correctly, it's up to everyone - not just the drummer - to keep the song in time

I love saying this quote in a band setting....which is a great quote....just to see the facial reactions. Very entertaining.

Because I'm a newer drummer, I find myself playing drums in less seasoned cover bands than I would/do as a guitarist...consequently, I have the opportunity to "review" things I experienced many years ago during my development on my first instrument.

You would think you are in the "She's a Witch" scene from the Holy Grail...standing on the podium using "logic" to ascertain if she is really a witch....


"Tempo is everyone's responsibility".....(scratching collective heads)...(group of witch hunters)....Huh?
 
I like having a click in my in ears to keep things reigned in. One that I can turn off easily if the band starts to run away from me anyway. Adrenaline, substance abuse, a few too many drinks, in one band member and the click track can really help save the show. I know a lot of people don't like it, but I don't even pay attention to it unless something is wrong.
 
I have a beat bug
http://www.luglock.com/tempometers.htm

which works well to monitor the tempos -- it's like a trigger kinda thing attached to your snare and it picks up the back beat -- to put it really simply, it will monitor 2 and 4 and display the bpm... if it's showing 50 fairly consistently through a song you're keeping a reasonable 100bpm meter. sounds confusing, but it's really easy once you use it a little -- you can adjust the sensitivity to allow for grace notes/shuffle patterns etc...

I don't use it all the time - but every once in a while I'll hook it up to see how we're doing.... it's a cool little tool. Not sure how it would help if the band wants to play faster than you think is reasonable -- but it could certainly show if you're starting at 1 tempo and finishing at another.

just thought I'd throw it out there. Another thing to keep an eye on that might help your case -- when you're at a gig and you kick into a tune and the dance floor is packed and they slowly start sitting down... that's proof to the whole band that you're playing too fast (or too slow - or wavering the tempo too much).
 
Guys, thanks a bunch for the comments. Does anyone know of a good iphone app that somehow tells you the BPM of the current song that is playing on it? Such that I'm playing a song with Beats streaming, and it tells me the BPM?
 
Guys, thanks a bunch for the comments. Does anyone know of a good iphone app that somehow tells you the BPM of the current song that is playing on it? Such that I'm playing a song with Beats streaming, and it tells me the BPM?

Don't know about that, but there are several simple tap tempo apps out there, but you actually have to tap them out yourself while listening.

Here's a simple one that works fine when preparing a song for rehearsal.

http://www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm
 
man, great topic. to me, this live tempo "negotiation" is just part of the job / journey. i am kind of a tempo "nazi" and print the BPM for each tune in the set list...so if anyone in the band is interested, it is there. for ex, superstition is 102 & the band loves it there, so it is a non-issue. but other tunes are a bit faster or slower than album versions. "runaway baby" by Bruno Mars is faster, we use the "live in paris" version. same weirdness w/ "happy" by Pharrell...it feels slow to the band but is right ON the album tempo (160 i think?), so it gets pushed. then originals are almost MORE specific...just a certain spot where they really groove. maybe the band is more aware, since there are "no rules" ?

on the speed up / slow down thing...YES on so many damned factors: adrenaline, booze, familiarity, experience w/ groove X, etc. i have actually heard more than a few guys state that "unless you have X amount of hours in a certain groove...then you are constantly speeding up or slowing down to find a tempo where you have experience grooving in". this makes a lot of sense to me...so maybe you have 1000 hours grooving in the "Feeling Allright" pocket, but no one else in the band does...so they speed it up until they get up to a pocket they have some seat time with.

on a BPM machine...i havent found anything that is modular or fast enough to program. the set list changes too much. so i have most song tempos memorized or i start them off w/ a click, let it run a bit & then shut it off.
 
As a drummer, it's important to know the feel without a click. I find that if the drummer is bang on, everybody trusts him/her, and everything is great. If the drummer is trying to follow, yea, no. More than anyone, the drummer has to establish the feel and hold it there. It's everybody else's job to not drag it or speed it up. But the drummer should know more than anyone what tempo the song should be at.

I don't get that luxury. The bandleader starts all the songs, which also sets the tempo, which is directly related to the feel. He varies the speed slightly from night to night, and sometimes he makes me adjust when he starts it off....too mellow. Sometimes he keeps it mellow, and sometimes he wants it where we normally play it. So I never know exactly how he wants it until the first minute of the song is up. He's really good, if not great, at setting the tempo/feel. If I can't do it, I'm glad he has a good sense of it. There's a few tempi that I disagree with, I'm not the tempo boss in the band, the only band I've ever been in where it's not my job.
 
As a drummer, it's important to know the feel without a click. I find that if the drummer is bang on, everybody trusts him/her, and everything is great... But the drummer should know more than anyone what tempo the song should be at.

YES!

And... no.

Like real musicians, a drummer is subject to various things that affect one's perception of tempo: excitement, fatigue, anxiety, intoxication, frustration or anger.

There are some instances where a drummer may zero-in on an uptempo song because it's as fast as they can comfortably play, but again, that's also subject to the effects of fatigue or intoxication.

There's a range of workable tempos for just about every song, and as long as the player counting-off is within that range, and the band can stay in that range, then all should be well.

I have no problem calling tempos, and I'm usually right when I do. And I have no qualms about using a click to get an agreed-upon tempo before I count-off, so that there's no question in anyone's mind about whether it's fast or slow.

Bermuda
 
Tempo is really critical to singers. Often folks will count off too fast to try and get some excitement into a song only to find they can't get all the words in. I always tell people to sing it to themselves, particularly the hardest part. Take a breath and do it again. A more reasonable tempo gives them space to work the melody and phrasing. Good singers learn this.

My problem is that after a few bars I'll get comfortable and settle into the groove. Or partway into a song I'll try to get the groove deeper. (I have a hard time starting out with it as deep as I can get it once things get going). To some folks this sounds like slowing down. I played with one rocker who kept turning around and yelling "It's dragging". I got to where I'd have the Live BPM app running on my phone. Nope, we ended up 4 BPM faster than when we started and there were no drops below the initial tempo. Stunned look on his face, and he would say it just felt wrong. I gave up and just went with however I started and let it speed up a bit through the song.

I find this is more of a rocker thing. Or inexperienced R&B folks who converted from rock. The good R&B folks understand "take your time".
 
The whole "if we play it faster there will be more excitement" thing is a crock o' crap IMO. Excitement is NOT tempo dependent. That's the mark of someone who is not comfortable with time, if they feel they need to speed up to make it exciting. It's a security thing. The tempo of the song is not something that you should change to compensate for insecurities, it doesn't work like that.
 
There is a correct and proper answer to tempo, and that question was answered in the studio. I'm sure many here have played with tempo in the studio to achieve the feel you were looking for, then the song was recorded. Same for songs that were recorded by other artists....

Surely there is no law here....and one can do as they please, but...If you are a cover band or band that wants to sound really great, then you should stay in that small range of workable tempos that bracket the actual tempo...as Bermuda alluded to.

Musicians that regularly complain about tempo onstage have not done the homework nor have they had the appropriate teamwork discussions.....nor has the band. Also musicians that complain a lot on stage are masking their own ineptitude or battling a real case of instrumental narcissism. Pros are very sensitive to what is going on around them and know how to control their own speed and also effectively communicate with the offending player to pull things in mid-song. They understand and accept it could be them as well and always self police.

Tempo and feel are the areas where a band can really come together and work as a collective...to make the band sound great. This is the real reason to be in a band. When you have folks in the band that cannot manage those gaps or don't respond to objective bpm data, the chances are they are several years away from being a good musician.....usually it's the guitarists....and man there are many many solid, tempo-aware guitarists out there.

Cut the anchor loose if they don't accept fault where it is valid and call the next man up. You will solve the tempo problem. If it's you, then own up to it, communicate with the band, hit the woodshed and fix it...even if it is a song you think you have down and played many many times. On the other end of the admission and the work towards proper execution, you will be a pro.

Pros don't think they look cool or sound great....they feel they suck and tirelessly work to meet their lofty expectations and that is why they get good at all phases of the process....Neil Peart anyone?
 
On some songs, the guitar player starts the tune. Say "The Middle" by Jimmy Eat World. That's a fast song to begin with, and he starts it even faster (despite talking to him about it) and I've often said "f-ck it" and just gone with it, but it sounds like crap to me, played too fast.

As long as nobody bitches (including you) its fine until all agree to correct it.



On a few other tunes, the singer can't sing in the original key, he takes it down a few steps. They asked me to count off a few songs faster to "compensate for the lower key." One example is Bruno Mars' "Locked out of Heaven." We were doing it hella fast (by the request of the singer) but I started doing it slower, to where it is faster than the recording, but not runaway fast.

Its usually follow the singer, they need to be comfortable. If the singer is struggling the band is crap. Just accept the fact you're in a band with singer who's still learning, (try to) help them, or get out if you can't stand it.



Have you guys run into this? How have you dealt with it? Do you guys ever agree on the BPM and use some kind of BPM machine as a guide to kick off the tune?

What sets pro musicians apart from lesser musicians is their ability to play in good time. You could probably play some grooves Steve Gadd plays live, relatively simple 2 and 4 grooves, but what sets him apart is his ability to make them sound (really good) in time.

Bar bands are at a level where you have to expect some of the participants don't have great time. The tempo of the song is limited to and dictated by who can and cannot play their parts in a given tempo. Some singers can't sing at the same tempo the original (pro) singer recorded the song at, I see that a lot. Some guitar players can't play a riff at the same tempo as the (pro) guitar player recorded it. The live tempo of the song needs to be at a place where all involved can pull it off comfortably, it should not be dictated by the original recorded tempo.

In the 80's I did a lot of cover band work involving a sequencer, i wore headphones to a click. What was quickly discovered was some nights begged for a higher tempo, as in the 'correct' tempo didn't work on the dance floor every night. People perceive time differently in different situations, on different days, lots of factors. It takes a band full of consciousness musicians to pull off workable tempos every night without sounding contrived, held back, out of touch, lame etc.

If one person in the band has questionable time, the rest can't save it, it'll be reflected by all.
 
You could probably play some grooves Steve Gadd plays live, relatively simple 2 and 4 grooves, but what sets him apart is his ability to make them sound (really good) in time.

What was quickly discovered was some nights begged for a higher tempo, as in the 'correct' tempo didn't work on the dance floor every night. People perceive time differently in different situations, on different days, lots of factors. It takes a band full of consciousness musicians to pull off workable tempos every night without sounding contrived, held back, out of touch, lame etc.

Re: Steve Gadd. He makes time feel so good. It's not just good time, it's good feeling time. It's the Mona Lisa smile factor.

Re: Some nights beg for a higher tempo...I subscribe to this too, not for everything that night, but certain stuff on certain nights needs to feel a certain way. The big take-away is that you have to read the crowd and be in touch with the vibe, and match that. Being in touch with the crowd is an art.
 
What sets pro musicians apart from lesser musicians is their ability to play in good time. You could probably play some grooves Steve Gadd plays live, relatively simple 2 and 4 grooves, but what sets him apart is his ability to make them sound (really good) in time.

When I watch top musicians play It always looks to me like they are just a conduit from some other plane to allow the music to enter our world via their instrument. There's no sense of concentration or effort...they're there and music just emerges.*

I first had this notion watching Bernard Purdie on YT explaining (no, make that 'splaining!) how he came up with his signature shuffle. More recently I was watching a doco on Mark Knopfler, and watchin him noodling some of his riffs was exactly the same.

* When I play, it's more like watching a battle to the death with constipation. A great deal of gurning, sweating and straining to force something hard and unpleasant to emerge into the world.
 
When I watch top musicians play It always looks to me like they are just a conduit from some other plane to allow the music to enter our world via their instrument. There's no sense of concentration or effort...they're there and music just emerges.*

I first had this notion watching Bernard Purdie on YT explaining (no, make that 'splaining!) how he came up with his signature shuffle. More recently I was watching a doco on Mark Knopfler, and watchin him noodling some of his riffs was exactly the same.

* When I play, it's more like watching a battle to the death with constipation. A great deal of gurning, sweating and straining to force something hard and unpleasant to emerge into the world.

Great post.

Except for the constipation part. James, knowing the "problem"....why don't you do the opposite and let all that tension go? Without changing the drum part. Changing your mental state will show up in your playing. Looking relaxed beats looking like you're trying to pass a grapefruit sized turd, right?
 
I may have been overstating for comic effect Larry. :)

And you are right (as I recall from a recent thread on the topic), being relaxed does improve how we play.

The sensible thing to take from this bit of thread diversion is that when we enjoy playing we tend to play better.
 
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