Help with drum teacher, PLEASE! :-)

It is kinda improv

I have had simular epxreinces with older learners. You guys are hard to please, Mainly because your conceptual undersatnding way suprasses your skills. You think you know stuff and you dont.

To get those sounds is years of work, maybe 5 if your very luck and work very hard, some may tell you otherwise but they are wrong, its hard. You need a solid technique, solid co-ordiantion and huge vocab. Its a long old road getting good enough to pull that shit off mate. I would compare to say soloing like Stevie Ray or something you know.

My advice to you is maybe learn some funk fisrt, get you rudiments down and your co-ordiantion, keep listening to music. And get your drum teacher to teach you what he wants and what he thinks you should learn as a drummer, you will learn more that way than making demands of i wanna be able to play this sick stuff. Good luck mate
 
Quote from mabhz:

"Im not familiar with the names you mentioned, except for Alan Dawson, but I have a very particular therory that Allan Holdsworth only became "Allan Holdsworth" because early on he already "had it" inside of him, and he oportunities in life (teachers, maybe) that allowed him to focus on improving his own style, instead of pushing him to learn all sorts of styles and musical aproaches. I mean, 20 years ago, Chad Wackerman probably already played the way he plays now, except with less ease and less musical "security", but probably flashier (it happens to us all. just compare old Mike Stern to current Mike Stern. Less chops and more musicality)."

Hi mabhz,

If I understand your theory correctly, you think players like Allan Holdsworth had teachers or opportunities that allowed him to improve a style he had inside of him, rather than pushing him to learn a lot of styles or musical approaches. I think it's something else. Here's part of his bio:

"The sounds of Django Reinhardt, Jimmy Rainey, Charlie Christian, Joe Pass , Eric Clapton, and John Coltrane were among this English musician's early inspirations when he began to work professionally as a musician in his early twenties. Born in the city of Bradford , England , Holdsworth had been extensively tutored in aspects of musical theory and jazz appreciation by his father, an accomplished amateur musician. Holdsworth paid his musician's dues early on working the dance-club circuit, where he began to meet fellow musicians who hailed from the south. One of England 's best jazz tenor saxophonists, Ray Warleigh, heard amazing potential in Holdsworth's playing and brought him along to participate in jazz sets at the onset of the 70s, including sessions with Ray at Ronnie Scotts in London."

I'm more familiar with drummers and who they studied with, but the common thread in these great players who have pushed the boundaries of their particular instrument is that:

1) they learned the nuts and bolts of the instrument.
2) they studied and copied the styles of the greats who came before them.

That's it.

They never contrived to play their own style out of the box. A mistake many aspiring drummers, including myself have made. It took many hits upside the head before I learned that lesson.

For your own peace of mind, you're not going to lose any inner creativity or sense of adventure doing this. Look of it as building an encyclopedia of musical knowledge. Don't think about how you can or can't apply it. Just go in and humbly learn the lesson (or system of lessons).

I do think you're partially on the right track- you're starting to look for a teacher who has a disciplined teaching method. But when it comes to applying your new found skills, I believe you will be better served getting experience in mainstream settings. Laying down the time with a bass player in a funk or blues band. Especially live. You already play guitar so you have a leg up on some drummers with regard to how to think musically. Later on you can try your musical experiments.

-John
 
A couple of things resonated with me here.

First the "with what purpose did you practise discussion." I have a hard time believing a teacher doesn't see the value in sometimes practising exercises. Exercises (i.e. not-as-muscial, and focusing on a specific technique) are critical, IMO. Sure you have to eventually move from exercise to real music. And it sounds like you already know all this. So I'd try to find out why your teacher asked this.

This reminds me of something I did many years ago. I got my hands on a really hard piece (on oboe). It was years above my ability. I practised really hard for a week (much harder than normal), and played it for my teacher. He wasn't very impressed, and I was crushed since I worked so hard. Of course now after years of hindsight, I realize that I really couldn't play it at all, so his reaction was justified.

I'm not saying that's what is happening here, but it could be. I'd recommend recording yourself. That'll tell you how you actually sound. See if you're as accurate as you think you are.

To a listener, hearing something simple but really solid is generally going to sound much better than hearing something really complex, but sloppier.
 
the last thing I wanna practice or play in my life is straigh 4/4 music, samba, bossa nova, pop, rock or anything that sounds remotely "boring" or straighforward to my ears.
I just listened to McLaughlin and Holdsworth to refresh, and sure enough, it is made of all of the above.

The truth as I see it is you are a player that does not know the basics, but wants to start on the advanced. The very advanced. To approach the music you want to play, you need to solidify the core material of swing, latin, afro-cuban, rock, etc. And you better get your reading skills tight.

As for your frustration learning certain things, to reach for the level you want you are going to have to learn how to learn. Deconstruct the exercise you are on, play it as slow as you need to to play it right. That can be in------cred-------ibly slow.

Honestly, at the risk of sounding like a prick, man up and do what your teacher tells you, and do it thoroughly. If you're not ready to put in the consistent practice time, sell your kit.
 
Wow, what a jerk I am! Sorry for the harsh post above.

You need to get down your core competencies to get where you want to go. I think that is all your teacher is saying.
 
If it is seriously "killing your motivation and irritating you so much to the point where you're almost already considering quitting drums," then STOP taking the lessons. Do you know why I do not take one-on-one lessons? YouTube. Anything guys at Berklee, M.I., or A.I.M. are learning, you can learn on YouTube. Everyone knows that, too, but for some reason people enjoy going into debt (it's also for the name of the school). If it's draining you of your passion for music, you're going to just have to inform the drum teacher that you're going to try and study things on your own for a bit. Read my signature.
 
My suggestion is to find another teacher and be more open-minded. Yes you can learn from YouTube for free, but nothing beats a good teacher that gives you feedback on your technique and playing.

I just started playing again last year after a 30 year break. I've tried a few times in the past to pick it back up again by going the YouTube or DVD's route, and I have always lost momentum and gave up after a few weeks.

This time I found a great drum teacher and the ride has been so much more enjoyable. I respect and trust this teacher, who was a student of Morello and Chapin. And thus, I feel accountable to really put in the effort before we meet again for our next lesson. That's the kind of teacher you want to find.

I never really listened to jazz much and I want to play funk better. But right now he is teaching me jazz, and I totally loved the challenge. Will I ever play jazz,? Probably not. But I practice like I will someday because I know it's making me a better drummer. I think that's how you should approach this. To be patient and open-minded to other styles and eventually you'll get to where you want to be.
 
Your teacher is probably doing the best he can. It is very hard to find the right direction when you want to play a certain way, especially if you already have a better idea of the playing style, sound, influence than your teacher. I got my best jazz playing direction from the old time jazz players. My teachers experience were manhattan show drummers. Incredible jazz players. They gave me some of their experience and the direction you need to go in order to get a solid foundation in basic jazz playing. You can do it your self.
Where do you start ? Here on this website. Talk to the older drummers on this sight and learn as much as you can. Get a good snare drum method book for the basic rudiments, this will provide you with basic articulation. Get a good drum set method book, this will get you flying around the kit. Listen to some of the player you like and start swinging on the kit and you will deveop your own voice of style.
 
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Mabhz, you're a rare breed: an accomplished guitarist learning drums. You already understand some very advanced music (I'm assuming you can play some Holdsworth and MacLaughlin tunes on guitar), and how the drums fit within it, right? So, for you, it's a matter of figuring out how to gain control of the mechanics of the drum set. If this is indeed the case, then you are anything but a typical drum student. It will be frustrating for you to learn the basics, because your intellectual understanding surpasses your physical ability by a wide margin. Such is the case with all students, but it's not a bother when that gap isn't so big. So take a breath and prepare to be frustrated for a few months while you get some fundamentals together.

That said, it sounds like your teacher ought to be emphasizing coordination and independence in small doses. Showing you different grooves and styles, and having you learn to tread water in those styles with a play along or specific tune is a good regimen, even if you're not particularly excited by the music. When you learned guitar, you probably learned music you liked, and as your abilities grew, the material you learned got more complex. This won't happen for you with drums! As a listener and guitarist, you're into crazy complex stuff, but as a drummer, you're not there yet.

About your independence explorations -- it seems your teacher could have used more finesse in that situation, but there are effective, practical ways to challenge your independence (The Art of Bop Drumming, Time Functioning Patterns, The New Breed) that will prepare you for musical expression, and there are ways that are more "drummeristic". It's very easy to get overwhelmed or lost (or both), and effective approaches are well-documented in the books I mentioned. I'm guessing that you're playing, while technically demanding, may be distracting or sound inauthentic. Imagine playing distorted power chords over "The Girl From Ipanema": wouldn't you tell that guitarist he was on the wrong track? Sure, he could defend his approach as artistic, but a certain acknowledgement of the music's tradition is expected and encouraged, right? In a samba or bossa tune, playing all of the upbeats on the ride is highly unusual. Why not practice coordination challenges that are more musical?

I'm also guessing you're a bit older than your teacher, so cut him some slack. Hopefully he'll figure out how to handle you soon. Whatever the case, it's guaranteed that he'll be more receptive to your ideas if you practice his.

Why Future Sounds? I mean, Garibaldi is a bad-ass, sure, but that book is fairly specialized. How about Time Functioning Patterns or New Breed? You may need to start with more basic hand patterns while you get your bass drum coordination together. New Breed also deals with odd-times, too.

And then there are technique and sticking fundamentals: accents, rudiments, snare solos. I suggest working from Syncopation (Ted Reed), and it wouldn't hurt to work through a beginning snare book, too. As you're learning technique and reading you can also be challenging your sense of rhythm.
 
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