DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
The rules of mother nature, intervallic relationships, tamber matching, SSC vertical, cross, and diagonal laminating. Are these hokus pokus ideas linked with cerebral marketing, or is this drum co living on the leading edge of better drum design?


When you see stuff like this, one can't help but think its all rooted in the milky goodness of innovation. Herein lies a deftly woven process that which in the back of your mind is hoped to be computed, tabulated and rationalized as better built/sounding drums, its supposed to make sense.


The palatable information is the mechanical information. Just by looking, people can mentally comprehend that hardware design X has (should have) better support potential than hardware Y. Mechanical differences tho when relating to how their process affects a drum shells sound are somewhat less understandable. It could be mysterious silver paint, it could be arcane wood grain orientations, it doesn't matter, there does need to be something tho that gets your thinking attention, some thing/process that you mentally agree with that makes you want to buy company X's drums. If sophisticated ply lay-ups and hot to cold shell molds make sense in your mind, then the laws of advertising say you're more likely to go with that companies product/process than with some other manufacture who just blindly rolls a shell the old fashioned way.


Sales one would think depend on a defined process that can be explained in a way the potential buyer can imagine that process will produce a different sound. It cannot be marketed as a 'better' sound, as a better sound can only be defined by the listener, not defined by a building process. The process (and material) of a build has 'only' to produce a noticeable 'difference' in sound, then that processes definition can be validated as something to market. Lug gaskets make sense, isolate the hardware, shell can vibrate, which in your mind means...?


It seems DW is has it going on. Who's putting as much energy and attention into the details of the materials and construction as DW? We can hear the differences in sound so the process isn't fantasy, they 'hope' we perceive it as 'better/desirable', but the only moral requirement for marketing is a noticeable difference.


So, with all their cutting edge coolness, all the DW disciples, why 'wouldn't' you want to buy a set of DW drums, or do you feel DW is completely off the E-meter?
 
This is probably true as I'm sure DW has some ego's like Tom Cruise and John Travolta to contend with too ;)
 
...waits for the DW fanbois to come screaming in here because of the inflammatory thread title...

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Seriously, DW's approach can't be *all* marketing hokum, unless they don't actually do all the stuff their marketing says they do.

If it doesn't do anything, there's no point in making it part of your production process. If you make it part of your production process anyway, you're wasting time. Time is money.

Companies don't like to piss money away. DW didn't get to the point where it could buy other music companies through wasteful practices. Logically, it holds that there's at least some measurable effect from their practices.

My issue with DW - and indeed any other drum company which makes claims about how their process affects the product, no offense intended, Andy - is that I've never seen data. I've never seen A - B comparisons where the only variable is, say, grain direction in one ply. Where you put the sound into a spectrum analyzer or oscilloscope so you could identify which frequencies changed when you made the switch. Hell, I want to see that for different materials (like birch vs maple vs oak)!

You can stand on camera all you like and tell me your unique shell construction makes your drums sound better, but I want to see the numbers. Moreover, I want to know how you arrived at those numbers. I want to see stuff like blind testing, where "8 out of 10 listeners heard our drums compared to the competition and preferred ours", though I'll still call bullshit if you claim it's because of your unique ply layup, unless you can prove it as described above.

And for all these things I want to know your process, how you obtained the data. I want to know your analysis process, what conclusions you discarded when the numbers didn't do what you thought they would.

It's not asking much, I know. ;-) But honestly, unless you can support the claim, all I can say is "Sez you, bub." We're talking about science, not art.
 
One of the things that I have learnt while drumming is to trust my instinct as far as drums go, so scientific jargon is just spin. Let us be the judge of which drums give us the ability to play to what we will.
 
One of the things that I have learnt while drumming is to trust my instinct as far as drums go, so scientific jargon is just spin. Let us be the judge of which drums give us the ability to play to what we will.

You would just be a buzzkill at the NAMM show ;)

But that's cool
 
I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...
 
no offense intended, Andy - is that I've never seen data. I've never seen A - B comparisons
I must admit, there's no reason why we couldn't offer an abridged version of our internal A-B testing for scrutiny, except for the cost of doing so. To cover all the bases, we'd need to build literally hundreds of drums, & we can't afford that.

There are two other angles to this too:

1/ A given company may not wish to reveal all their R&D processes/results. I can appreciate such a stance, & in some regards, that applies to us.

2/ The purported "innovation" actually doesn't work, or if it does, the difference is so minimal it's not easy to display by means of video, etc. I'm pretty sure that applies quite widely.

We constantly amass anecdotal evidence of our instrument's individuality. Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)
 
Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)

You guys should really get out to the NAMM show - in that environment if people can hear Guru's being played in that loud hall I'd be super impressed!
 
Totally agree with the OP, it is the Scientology of companies, now we need a Jason Beghe of the drumming community to blow the lid of this as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok

I've played and heard many DW's - still play one weekly at a rehearsal studio. The marketing has not resonated with me - I just don't get it or see the facts supporting it - sound is subjective like everyone stated already.

Now just for fun, since we've established DW as scientology, what would you associate other companies in lieu of other religions (fake or not :))
 
Good idea Joseph. Hopefully this doesn't get out of hand...

I'd compare Ludwig to Catholicism. Been around forever, slow to change and adapt to the times yet remains popular with many, many devout followers. Many of these followers deliberately overlook the glaring incongruences with the church and their own beliefs/likes. Some may modify to suit their needs/beliefs.

That being said, I just bought my first LM402 and actually am a former Roman Catholic.
 
Magic silver paint is my thing. It sounds nice.

Never heard anyone except Toss get a nice sound out of DW toms.

We like what we like.

When it comes to snare drums it's not that simple, though. So many different ones and so many nice ones.
 
I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...

Thanks for the giggle, I almost spat my tea all over the keyboard.

It's ironic that DW is the only forum that doesn't like Drum workshop.

Is that an irony? I'm not sure, I'm just a dumb drummer but everywhere else I go people speak highly of them. I like DWs image, I definitely notice that they are powerful sounding drums, and I observe that most of the guys working behind the counter in various stores that I visit own DW's, so why is that?

These are guys that have all day to test every brand, there's surely something to that. One particular shop always had collectors kits setup and I didn't really go for the bigger sizes or those hideous and plasticky sounding stock heads but I had a great experience on an Eco X kit in fusion sizes one day. I also shared a DW performance kit at a gig once and I really enjoyed playing it.

If they weren't so out of reach price wise I'd like to own one at least for a while and see what they're all about.
 
I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...


I sense gender identity confusion in this ^^^^ post.

LOL
 
A little off topic, but last week I went to a small pizza/bar/restaurant type place that was featuring a jazz group.

The drummer set up with a 6 piece DW kit with twice as many cymbals. I'll bet he had close to 10K sunk into that kit.
His setup alone took up a good portion of that room (there were several seating areas there).

Just got a chuckle out of it.
 
Can't wait to see where this thread goes.

If Luddies are Catholic, I'd say Pearl, Yamaha or Tama are Hindu (many gods) and some smaller companies or Guru are Buddhist (Nirvana?)
I don't know which if any is Islam.

Disclosure: agnostic, former Roman Catholic
 
I'd argue we do, but less well positioned to get the message out. Of course, our approach is very different - period!

Originally implying the majors, but yes GURU is working some cool magic, can loosely be seen as an 'up an coming' drum cult in the same light hearted sense I made the DW reference to. You guys thought about opening a retreat somewhere near the equator Andy?



I think its great DW is willing and able to experiment to such a great degree, and like I said we paid/are paying for that. Professor Good get$ to let his imagination run wild. Honestly I would fully accept the process if not for the (carry over CAMCO) turret lugs, never liked the look of them, and truthfully 'the only' reason I wouldn't buy DW. Why can't DW just come out with a new line sporting a more vertical lug design, they got the money? Just about every other major drum co has more than one lug design.


With all the tools and tec money can buy at their disposal there has been innovation. The EDGE snare drum idea, kinda like just flipping a PEARL free floater flipped over tho, some semblance of that idea already existed. Professor Good scores with the esoteric ply lay ups, and honorable mention goes to the lofty, held sacred (but subjective in the publics eye) TIMBER MATCH(ING). I'll give them 'first' with fine-threads on tension rods (but I could be wrong), oh and I do own DW aluminum FT legs, something no one else had introduced bf them. MAG LEV/Three position strainer scores high. Dog/puppy bones are basically multi clamps. Stuff like JAZZ series drums are just the result of looking at the what was and making their own version.

The major drum voicings seem to be established, Maple, Birch, Vintage (mahogany, gum, poplar). metal. So where does one go with drum shells now, airtight, digital pneumatic tuning?





Here's a list of DW registered trademarks and patents:

DW®
DW Turret-Style Drum Lug Design Reg. No. 2,150,216
DW 5000®
True-Pitch®
DW Turret-Style Drum Lug Design
F.A.S.T.-Tom®

The Drummer's Choice®
DogBone®
Collarlock®
Timbre Match®
Timbre Tune®
Timber Match®
Timber Tune®
Chain Drive®
Collector's Series®
TechLock®
TrueTone®
DW Jazz Drums®
Drum Day®

PDP®

Kitbuilder®
Red pedal base plates are a trademark of Drum Workshop, Inc.

Foreign trademarks pending

US Patents

Edge (drum construction)- 5,377,576
STM- 5,520,083
Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)- 5,770,810
Coated Clear head w/annular coating)- 5,920,021
Head with Center Coating- 6,518,490
Fine Tune Floor Tom Leg- 6,060,652
Bearing Edge- 6,525,250
Delta Ball-Bearing throw-off covered by- 6,573,442- 5,616,875 and 6,891,098
Heel-Less Pedal- 7,396,986
U.S. Patented Processes:

Drum Processing Apparatus- 5,884,379
Drum Sanding Apparatus- 5,735,733
Foreign Patents

Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)-German Pat. # 198 82 994
Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)- UK Pat. # 2352318
DW
 
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I must admit, there's no reason why we couldn't offer an abridged version of our internal A-B testing for scrutiny, except for the cost of doing so. To cover all the bases, we'd need to build literally hundreds of drums, & we can't afford that.

Oh, I'm certain, and I should make very clear that I wasn't aiming my comments at you. The differences between what you do and ply instruments are so vast as to be night and day. Any fool can plainly see that. I was referring specifically to "We do [insert term of art here] to make what *looks* like any other ply drum sound better than other ply drums." For me, that's an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have yet to see evidence of any description from DW or any other ply-shell company, companies who can afford to build the hundreds of drums required to perform such testing.

1/ A given company may not wish to reveal all their R&D processes/results.

While I understand that viewpoint, if the maker won't share what leads him to make the claim, I reserve the right to think the claim is so much bohunkus. ;-) More pertinently, companies like DW and Sonor specifically tell us in their marketing what makes their product, in their words, superior to other ply-shell instruments. They just don't provide any metric by which the veracity of the claim might be confirmed.

2/ The purported "innovation" actually doesn't work, or if it does, the difference is so minimal it's not easy to display by means of video, etc. I'm pretty sure that applies quite widely.

I have no doubt this is usually the case, which is why I think they don't provide any metric by which the difference can be measured. For example, I just spent all day in the studio with a DW kit two days ago. While it was very nice, and I enjoyed playing it, I noted no superiority to my maple/ash Premier Cabria in terms of sound or fit and finish. Hardly scientific, I know, but... As you rightly note, a ply drum is a ply drum. The differences are so miniscule as to be negligible.

We constantly amass anecdotal evidence of our instrument's individuality. Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)

You should be! That's a very fine feather in your cap! I plan on adding myself to the roster of Guru converts in a few years' time. As I've noted, your instruments are a galaxy removed from even the finest ply drums. I shouldn't wonder if they were instantly recognizable in the drum-show din (or is row the mot juste?).

Now I've buttered you up, I feel I can cordially attack your statement regarding anecdotal evidence. :)

Anecdotal evidence ... isn't. A human can testify to what they perceive to be the characteristics of the thing they're sensing, but without a metric there is no evidence, except that which can be gathered in blind A/B sensory evaluation (and a handful of other methods).

The probability is overwhelming that, if the listener knows it's a current-issue DW drum, if they perceive a difference in sound they'll ascribe it to whatever widget DW touts as making the difference. Thus anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

Now, if DW showed a display of an audio waveform where one can see (and I'm just making up numbers here) that a DW HVX shell had 10dB more intensity from 800 to 1200Hz as compared to a traditional horizontal/vertical ply layup (or something like that), that's data. But they don't offer that. They just splat a lot of builder's jargon at one and hope one is convinced they're telling the truth when they say, "DW's HVX maple shell technology provides superior sound quality in live and studio situations by combining wood layers with grain orientations that run horizontally, vertically, and diagonally."

What does "superior" mean? By what metric has Mr Good established his product as "superior"? As I've said before, if DW made the claim, "8 out of 10 players preferred DW Performance Series drums in blind testing", I'd accept that (with proper documentation). "Superior", however, is an empty claim without some sort of metric.

This is a very interesting conversation! :-D
 
While its obvious Bob doesn't like DW's marketing, I think its undeniable that DW is the most open of any drum manufacturer on the planet about how their drums are built, the thought process behind it, and who show these characteristics in a way that is simple for the regular viewing public to understand without boring them with oscilloscope graphs and what not. John Good goes out of his way to show the public what goes in to making their drums. No other builder will put together a 45 minute video showing you how a single ply of wood and its grain orientation play a roll in the shells construction and overall fundamental note. The best you get out of the other brands is some sales rep talking about a finished kit and how it sounds "warm and punchy". Thanks Tama for telling me how all your innovations have made your drums "punchy". The thing is, John hasn't just made one of these videos. He has made hundreds of these videos. If DW crafts something new, JG is out there making a new video about it to show the public.

I'm not saying I'm drinking the DW Kool-Aid, but John Good does seem genuinely interested in showing you what makes a DW drum. The other manufacturer's don't do any of that. You might be lucky to see a 5 minute factory tour video that really doesn't show you anything about what goes in to making a drum.
 
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