What's the difference between 12/8 and 4/4 with a swing feel? And other time sig questions.

ba dum tish

Member
As someone who doesn't look at too much sheet music, I'm curious as to whether the terms "12/8" and "4/4 with a swing feel" can be used completely interchangeably, or if there really is a difference. If there is no real difference, is one conventionally used more than the other? If there is a difference between the two, would anyone mind giving me some examples of songs that illustrate each one?

Also, what would you call the time signature of this song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBPCm25z4I
18/16 is the only guess I have.

Actually, I think a better question than all of this would be, does anyone know of any resources that would show you generic drum beats for all of the most common time signatures? That way I would better understand the difference between say 6/8 and 12/8, and other distinctions I'm kind of fuzzy on. Does anyone know if anything like this exists?

many thanks
 
There are several threads around here discussing this, but in brief:

Yes, many different time signatures are mathematically equivalent to other time signatures.

The differences is usually the implied feel,
or
ease of writing out for the intended tempo
or
relation to other time signatures in a given song.

4/4 with a swing feel might mean a shuffle, or might mean a jazz swing pattern.
12/8 usually means a blues shuffle feel.

3/4 and 6/8 are mathematically the same, but the implied feel is completely different.
3/4 implies a 1 + 2 + 3 +
6/8 implies 1 2 3 4 5 6

For a slow song, writing out and counting 12/8 might be easier.
For a really fast song, counting 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 is a mouthful, and difficult, and takes up a lot of paper. Counting it in 4/4 with a swing feel is easier to count.




But sometimes it's just the relation to other time signatures in a given song, and feel or ease of use has nothing to do with it.

If a song starts in 7/8 and goes into 12/8, that means the second section is five additional 8th notes compared to the 1st section. (7/8 + 5/8 = 12/8)

If a song is in 7/8 and goes into 4/4 with a swing feel, that means the second section is one additional 8th note longer compared to the 1st section. (4/4 = 8/8, which is 7/8 +1/8).
 
Also, what would you call the time signature of this song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBPCm25z4I
18/16 is the only guess I have.

I'd write that down as 12/8. It has some swung notes in the middle as well.
Perhaps you are getting confused with where the drums start playing? That's before the beginning of the next 12/8 bar.
Not to make you feel bad, but time signatures are a *very* simple and logical concept, so don't get caught up in it, see it for what it is; the upper number is the amount of notes from the value given by the lower number. 7/8 = Seven eighth notes. 5/4 = Five Quarter Notes. 18/16 (wth?) = Eighteen Sixteenth notes.


Fox.
 
I tend to let the song style dictate what the time signature is. Your Radiohead example is very reminiscent of a 12/8 feel. Anything played like that could be referred to a 12/8 feel. Thus, older songs like "Unchained Melody" or "Tears on my pillow" would be categorized into that time signature.

The reason 4/4 with a swing feel is used in jazz feels is because the pulse is counted on the 1,2,3, & 4 of each bar. Whereas in a slower 12/8 ballad the pulse is actually every 8th note, not every dotted quarter note (which would be the case if you were to use 4/4 time but use triplets over every subdivided quarter note).

That's how I differentiate between 12/8 and 4/4 (with a triplet feel) - one dictates a different pulse from the other.

Of course, when you get into odd time signatures, the the feel changes but what gets the pulse is different and to make it a little simpler, I tend to see odd-time bars as bars with something lopped off. For instance, you could see 7/8 as a bar of 8/8 with one eighth note lopped off, or 5/4 as a bar of 4/4 with one beat added.

Off topic, once you get the counting down in whatever time signature you're reading (which would usually mean 4/4 or whatever/8) you should train yourself to see it in cut time - which is the half note getting the pulse as opposed to the quarter note OR the quarter note getting the pulse as opposed to the eighth note because I have found that when arrangers write stuff out, writing in cut time creates less clutter to read, but doubles the length of the song, but each bar would only get two beats per bar. This shouldn't be a problem if you recognize all your note values, but I've found that skill absolutely important when say, reading show tunes.

Did I just confuse you more?
 
Swing is an interpretation of regular duple 4/4 that often happens to fit with triplets. 12/8 is a straight up mathematically-correct triplet feel, just like the Radiohead song. The two feels are very different, even on very triplety swing (John Coltrane's Tunji, or Blues To Elvin). Usually the only time 12/8 is called up in a swing setting is to specify a strong/consistent triplet feel on a ballad, like on something like Georgia On My Mind, or sometimes for an Afro-Cuban feel.

There's a book called the Drummer's Bible, or something like that, which has basic grooves for a wide range of styles.
 
Essentially, the difference is 4/4 has a straight feel, while 12/8 has more of a triplet feel.

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Although can really feel 12/8 as any combinations of 2s and 3s if you wanted to, I guess...

2 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3

2 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 2

etc.

Sorry, I didn't read the post.

To me, there is no real difference, I really just tend to let the song dictate the feel.
 
12/8 usually means a blues shuffle feel.

12/8 a shuffle feel? This is not how I understood it. I thought 12/8 is played with a straight triplet feel, not a dotted 8th feel. Yes, the shuffle is based on the triplet, but when the second note of the triplet is played, the result is not considered a shuffle, right? Clarification anyone?
 
12/8 a shuffle feel? This is not how I understood it. I thought 12/8 is played with a straight triplet feel, not a dotted 8th feel. Yes, the shuffle is based on the triplet, but when the second note of the triplet is played, the result is not considered a shuffle, right? Clarification anyone?

I always feel times like 6/8 and 12/8 as triplets at moderate tempos, although if you were to think about it, playing a groove over 6/8, you only really emphasize 1 and 4 (7 and 10). Tempo also dictates feel. If you're playing an uptempo, the triplet feel is still there, but the emphasis is really on 1 and 4, 7 and 10. Slower tempos allow us to really push that triplet feel.

At least, that's how I understand things.
 
12/8 a shuffle feel? This is not how I understood it. I thought 12/8 is played with a straight triplet feel, not a dotted 8th feel. Yes, the shuffle is based on the triplet, but when the second note of the triplet is played, the result is not considered a shuffle, right? Clarification anyone?

Well, yes, you're technically right Larry.

You don't swing or shuffle the notes, and you play all the 8ths.. I was referring to the implied feel.

The hi-hat/ride might be playing all 12 notes, a piano or guitar might be playing all 12 notes, but the bass drum tends to still be playing similar patterns to what one plays in a shuffle, which (in my mind) gives it that very blues feel.

Journey's "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'"
Toto's "Hold the Line"
George Thorogood's "I Drink Alone."

Also, I said usually, not always. I'm sure someone can point out some 12/8 songs that have nothing to do with blues feels.
 
Fair enough DED. I've always had confusion about the 12/8 time sig. I've always called it a 6/8 feel....1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6...

Is there any noticeable difference between 6/8 and 12/8?

Why count to 12? I'm not schooled so please excuse any ignorance.

Now 3/4 time compared to 6/8 time feels totally different.

I tend to only read the top number in time sigs, the bottom number always confuses me. Take 9/8 for instance. I just count in 9's. Does 9/8 sound different than 9/4? (if there is such a time sig)
 
Thanks everyone for the replies! From what I've gathered from this thread, the main difference between 12/8 and a swung 4/4 is that in 12/8 you feel the pulse on every 8th note, while with a swung 4/4, the pulse is felt more readily on every quarter note.

It seems to me that if you start out with a 12/8 beat at some moderate tempo, and gradually increase the tempo, eventually that same beat will inevitably converge (feel-wise at least) to a swung 4/4 beat once the tempo gets fast enough. Am I thinking about this correctly?

Just to solidify what I think I've learned from this thread so far, would I be correct in assuming that this song is a swung 4/4, and not a 12/8?
 
Fair enough DED. I've always had confusion about the 12/8 time sig. I've always called it a 6/8 feel....1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6...

Is there any noticeable difference between 6/8 and 12/8?

Why count to 12? I'm not schooled so please excuse any ignorance.

Honestly, the whole 12/8 vs 6/8 confuses me too. Same feel, same thing is accomplished.
Just if you see charts for blues tunes, they tend to be written out in 12/8, not 6/8.

Many Latin tunes are written in 6/8, and they don't have a blues feel. But I suck at Latin.

So I guess that is the main difference. 12/8 tends to imply blues, 6/8 might imply latin. Or not.
Your mileage may vary.


Does 9/8 sound different than 9/4? (if there is such a time sig)

Assuming rock-n-roll:

Mathematically, 9/8 is a bar of 4/4 with an extra eight note.
Although usually means three groupings of 3 eighth notes, like 12/8 only missing the last 3 notes. But not always.

Mathematically, 9/4 is two bars of 4/4 with an extra quarter note.
There are going to be more back beats in 9/4/ then 9/8.

But no hard or fast rules. The difference is usually how the signature related to other time signatures with in the given song.

An easier way to notice the difference is with 7.

The intro to Rush's "Subdivisions" is in 7/8 - 1 2 1 2 1 2 3
Then goes into regular 4/4.
You wouldn't want to think of it as 7/4, because of it's relationship to the 4/4, and that it goes by quickly.

Pink Floyd's "Money" is in 7/4. It sounds like two bars of 4/4 with a quarter note missing.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And then the guitar solo goes in 4/4. So again, the relationship becomes important.
 
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I think the main differences in 6/8 and 12/8 relate to more the harmonic and chordal structure of a song, and not so much its feel, but that's just me. Though there are definitely some unique 6/8 feels that cannot be accomplished in 12/8. like this song for example...(really amazing song, skip the somewhat ethereal beginning part if you'd like, the part im talking about starts at around 2:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVyY0-hyp8

This song implements a repeating bass line that repeats every bar of 6/8, it wouldn't work in 12/8. And furthermore, if there are a lot of accents that lie on the "upbeats" of a song in 12/8 (1 + 2 + etc.) , it's a lot easier to read and write it on charts than if you wrote out the accents that would have been sextuplets in 4/4 time.

as for 9/4, it could be thought of as 3 bars of 3/4, or 2 bars of 4/4 plus an extra quarter note. It all depends on how the song is formed. If the song feels like 3/4, then it is rather pointless to notate it in 9/4. But if it feels more like 4/4 plus a quarter note, then 9/4 would be the most efficient way of notating it. So I think what I'm getting at here is that time signatures are entirely dependent on the harmonic structure of the song and how it feels.
 
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One thing is the feel and/or internal note values, and another very different thing is the time signature. The time signature is the amount of notes of a given value that fit inside a bar; THAT'S IT. It's both wrong and arbitrary to say "Yeah, 12/8 is more of a swung feel."; it CAN be, but not necessarily.
Mixing the two absolutely separate concepts denotes a HUGE lack of understanding on the subject, so I don't get why you'd try to contribute when you know little about something, it only adds to the (inexplicable) confusion.
TheGroceryman explained it quite well, by the way. The time signature IS related to how a song feels indeed, but *structurally*.


Fox.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies! From what I've gathered from this thread, the main difference between 12/8 and a swung 4/4 is that in 12/8 you feel the pulse on every 8th note, while with a swung 4/4, the pulse is felt more readily on every quarter note.

I'm not so sure this is right. In my mind your statement should go like this:

From what I've gathered from this thread, the main difference between 12/8 and a swung 4/4 is that in 12/8 you maintain a straight triplet feel, while with a swung 4/4 it has a shuffle feel.

I could be wrong, this is how I am intrepreting the thread. I'm asking for more clarification.

Also, I'm assuming that a swung 4/4....would sound like a shuffle, right?
Straight triplets, and a shuffle feel....2 different feels, even though the shuffle is a triplet with the middle note rested. Related but different.

I count shuffles in 4. 12/8 time, (which I call 6/8) I count in 6, not 4. Big difference in my mind.

So I count in 4 for the shuffle and 6 for the triplet, even though they are essentially the same pattern. Weird.
(Unrelated tangent: I thought the grammer rule was I before E except after C. Not the case in weird. Weird, huh?)

Assuming rock-n-roll:

9/8 is a bar of 4/4 with an extra eight note.
Although usually means three groupings of 3 eighth notes, like 12/8 only missing the last 3 notes. But not always.

9/4 is two bars of 4/4 with an extra quarter note.
There are going to be more back beats in 9/4/ then 9/8.


THANK YOU DED!. I finally get it because of this! There would definitely be a mathmatical difference in the way those "beats" sound.
 
What's the difference between 12/8 and 4/4 with a swing feel?

Nothing necessarily. You could write the same groove out in either time signature and they'd sound the same. Only difference is that the 4/4 one would indicate the triplet feel with a bar across the top of the notes making up a triplet while in the 12/8 it would not.
 
I'm not so sure this is right. In my mind your statement should go like this:

From what I've gathered from this thread, the main difference between 12/8 and a swung 4/4 is that in 12/8 you maintain a straight triplet feel, while with a swung 4/4 it has a shuffle feel.

I could be wrong, this is how I am intrepreting the thread. I'm asking for more clarification.

Also, I'm assuming that a swung 4/4....would sound like a shuffle, right?
Straight triplets, and a shuffle feel....2 different feels, even though the shuffle is a triplet with the middle note rested. Related but different.

I count shuffles in 4. 12/8 time, (which I call 6/8) I count in 6, not 4. Big difference in my mind.

So I count in 4 for the shuffle and 6 for the triplet, even though they are essentially the same pattern. Weird.
(Unrelated tangent: I thought the grammer rule was I before E except after C. Not the case in weird. Weird, huh?)




THANK YOU DED!. I finally get it because of this! There would definitely be a mathmatical difference in the way those "beats" sound.

But Larry! One shouldn't think that specific time signatures denote specific feels! There are multiple feels for each time signature, even 4/4 (8/8)! Here's a tune in 4/4, doesn't sound like our casual 4/4 does it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUEFVVw9NY&feature=related

12/8 doesn't need to be based of triplets, 9/4 doesn't need to be 4/4 plus 1, 9/8 doesn't need to be 2 + 3 + 2 + 2, etc etc. It all depends on how a song is formed.
 
One thing is the feel and/or internal note values, and another very different thing is the time signature. The time signature is the amount of notes of a given value that fit inside a bar; THAT'S IT. It's both wrong and arbitrary to say "Yeah, 12/8 is more of a swung feel."; it CAN be, but not necessarily.
Mixing the two absolutely separate concepts denotes a HUGE lack of understanding on the subject, so I don't get why you'd try to contribute when you know little about something, it only adds to the (inexplicable) confusion.

Considering you just agreed with my point, I don't see how you can then say I have a HUGE lack of understanding on the subject.

If you actually READ what I wrote, I said "usually" "implied" "no hard or fast rules."

I also CLEARLY said "But sometimes it's just the relation to other time signatures in a given song, and feel or ease of use has nothing to do with it. "
So how is that wrong?


Yes, it's true The time signature is the amount of notes of a given value that fit inside a bar.
But there are reasons composers use 12/8 as opposed to 24/16 or 6/4, even though mathematically they are all equal.
The reasons ARE arbitrary, I agree, but they tend to hold up.

But since you claim I am so in the wrong, please point out some common or well known songs that are in 12/8 but do not have any kind of blues/shuffle type feel.

I'm sure they exist, I never said they didn't. I can't think of any though.

I'm sorry you fell I have HUGE lack of understanding. It's what I learned at PIT and from assorted music teachers over the years. If I'm so wrong, feel free to write to Ralph Humphrey and Joe Pocaro and tell them they taught me wrong.

But apparently, I'm not all wrong.
http://www.essortment.com/music-theory-lesson-time-signatures-61857.html

12/8 is four beats of three eighth notes (twelve eighth notes). Both 9/8 and 12/8 are commonly used in swing music.

http://www.musicarrangers.com/star-theory/t19.htm
12 - 8 is an alternative to 4 - 4 when the tempo is slow. At fast tempo the feel is better written as a 4 - 4 shuffle.

Now, if you get into classic music, sure, all this goes out the window, but not many classical tunes call for a drum set.











TheGroceryman explained it quite well, by the way. The time signature IS related to how a song feels indeed, but *structurally*..

OK, so you say I have a HUGE lack of understanding, and the you agree with the point I made????
 
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Fair enough DED. I've always had confusion about the 12/8 time sig. I've always called it a 6/8 feel....1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6...

Is there any noticeable difference between 6/8 and 12/8?

Why count to 12? I'm not schooled so please excuse any ignorance.

Now 3/4 time compared to 6/8 time feels totally different.

I tend to only read the top number in time sigs, the bottom number always confuses me. Take 9/8 for instance. I just count in 9's. Does 9/8 sound different than 9/4? (if there is such a time sig)

An 8 in the bottom usually means a triplet feel, or an odd meter, and you do not normally count "in" the top number- you don't count to 9 when playing 9/8. 6/8 is triplets in 2, 12/8 is triplets in 4, 9/8 is often triplets in 3, though it's also commonly broken down unevenly, like 2+2+2+3. 9/4 usually will have a regular quarter note pulse, like 4/4. The difference between 6/8 and 12/8 is not real significant if you're not reading- they both have a back beat, and you can usually get away with using them interchangeably. They do each have styles attached to them somewhat, so if somebody says 12/8 to me I think either slow blues, or quasi-doo-wop/50's pop, or triplet ballad. When they say 6/8 I think All Blues/Footprints, Afro-Cuban, or 6/8 march.

Re: shuffles- Led Zeppelin's You Shook Me is an example of a shuffle that could be counted in 12/8; most brighter-tempo shuffles, like Kansas City, will be in 4/4.
 
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