Colleges? I know this has been done to death!

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
I was thinking of going to a jazz place in dublin, ireland. But when i leave the school, i will just be going to a place like america anyway, so i figured, getting to know guys while over there studying would be great. And the schools over there are most likely better ( depends on which school) I have looked at berklee, the collective, manhattan school but they are all so expensive. The cheapest i have seen is paterson university, but they don't seem to give out a lot of scholarships, and although they are cheaper, still a bit too mushc for the out of state student. Any other schools that you know of, I have also looked at one in texas, but is also VERY costly. I know that they will all be, but which is the best bang for buck out there?
 
Go to a school that produces a lot of players working in the field you want to go into. Manhattan, North Texas, Eastman may be expensive but the produce the best of the best. Look at other areas other then drums. Look at sax, bass, guitar, trombone. look at all areas and find the school that produces people who work. Great schools produce great players who find work. Good luck.
 
Go to a school that produces a lot of players working in the field you want to go into. Manhattan, North Texas, Eastman may be expensive but the produce the best of the best. Look at other areas other then drums. Look at sax, bass, guitar, trombone. look at all areas and find the school that produces people who work. Great schools produce great players who find work. Good luck.

Thanks for the advise, yeah I have been looking at places with good alumni and that. But working out the cost, paterson university seems like the best bang for buck. But i wont be applying until like January, so no rush yet!
 
USC in Southern California cranks out alot of good players. So does, UCLA, and Cal State Long Beach. However, being able to start a career in music upon graduation is a whole 'nother can of worms.

I had one teacher advise to NOT study in the city you want to work in because studying is when you make all of your mistakes, socially and musically. You do not want to hob-knob with music contractors before you're ready. They're just interested if you can give them what they need. They do not need to know you were the one who screwed up some school big band gig taking place at the Queen Mary.

In Los Angeles, there are lots of great players, but the business itself is very small. Everyone will know everyone - so you must project a good reputation because it will precede you.

I studied in a two-year community college from a band director who at first studied at North Texas state, then went on to play for Stan Kenton and Maynard Ferguson. I learned so much from him, it really helped me when I transferred to 4-year university, where I took a couple of lessons with Ed Shaughnessy from the Tonight Show, and just by being in LA, got to pick the brains of some pros around town.

I think this is a decision you cannot take lightly. You're preparing to spend an awful lot of money for no real return because it's music. There are no guarantees in the world of entertainment. You could do everything right in college and network 'til the cows come home, but that doesn't mean someone is going to hire you. This isn't like going to school for nursing, or law, or medicine, where people need these services and while in school they're helping you get a job. You have to mentally prepare to be poor even after you've spent the $$$ to complete school.

But it's not all bad news, really. If you love playing, then going to music school is certainly NOT a waste of time. And if you're prepared to do anything to play, people can get by and move on to better opportunities - they do it everyday. In music school you may find music education is for you, and become a teacher. Hell, with a Bachelor's degree in anything, you can at least start a teaching career.

I just say this because I've had alot of friends who went to places like Berklee and even Musicians Institute, and the successful ones became music teachers, or regular teachers. Some are still out their slugging away, and some have found other careers altogether. Although I still play out some, my career is as an audio engineer here at Disneyland, after I played here for 12 years as a drummer. After a while I was tired of not knowing where next months' rent was going to come from and really wanted to settle down and not worry about if I'll ever own my own house. Mixing audio here has allowed me to see the guys I started out playing with more than when I was playing with 'em!
 
The few musicians that I met that are studying music over in ireland seemed to me to be at least as good as if not better than musicians over here in the states. I have no idea if this is true, but that was my general impression. Hell I saw a 14 yr old girl on a penny whistle that was better than most of the musicians over here.

I met a drummer and bass player who are studying jazz in dublin (not sure of the college, but there probably isn't more than one?) They definitely had their chops together, and would have no problem landing gigs over here in the states. I met two other guitar players who where studying in galway (not sure on the college, but I don't think it was jazz program) and they where very good as well.

I would just say go study where you can and what is affordable to you, what school you go to isn't going to make or break your career.

I went to north texas but I only was able to go there because it was in-state tuition for me. It was the best option I could afford. If you have to take out a bunch of loans to pay for school to get a jazz degree it's probably not a smart idea.

My advice though is to still try to pursue a few of your choices, do the auditions, then after you get accepted to the schools make your decision. You never know what kind of scholarships or financial aid they might offer you.

I don't play with anybody I went to school with in north texas. I haven't ever gotten a gig just because I went to UNT. It helps land auditions sometimes but I still have to earn my gig like everybody else.
 
thks for the advise guys. With regards to the musicians that you know mcbike, the only jazz college in ireland is the one in dublin i am thinking of going to, newpark. But there are a few other colleges in dublin, they just don't have jazz programmes. I suppose the best thing to do is just audition for as many as i can and then make a decision. I think i have the whole idea of the grass is always greener, because the place in dublin seems like a pretty good institute, but i just really want to get out of Ireland! If I do manage to get some sort of scholarship to a college in america, the odds are that i would take it. Wouldn't mind travelling when I;m young, especially if it will end up costing less than dublin. At the moment i'm comparing everything to dublin, price wise anyway. The drum instructer up there seems really good too, even though I'm not really a fan of his style. From your experiences, would it be better to go to a better institute or one with a prefered drum instructer?
 
In my opinion, there is a small chance of a successful career in music, especially in jazz. If you love jazz then you don't need a classroom to break it down for you anyway. Just listen and play it on the side of a real career.

But if music really is your thing, go for it. But you gotta pay the price for on of those schools, they just don't come cheaply anymore.
 
I think I would search for those that I wanted to study with and would be willing to allow me to study with them. Which means you wouldn't have to attend a school at all. I think it's clear, having a music degree only means something if you plan on becoming a teacher, but it sounds like you want to be a player and be able to live and travel. You can't do that if you're having to get a job to pay back all those student loans. It'd be cheaper and on your own time to study with the pros. Think of it - you could just travel to the US, hang out in New York or LA, and make contact with your heroes and pay them a little so you can pick their brains! I've met alot of them here in Los Angeles that are willing to take on serious students, and you know you wouldn't be getting the information second hand.

I liked what Tony Williams did - he wanted to learn composition, so rather than enrolling in school, he goes to the professor of composition at San Francisco University and takes private lessons!
 
I may get roasted for this, but I would go to a trade school in either LA or NY, learn a trade ; while taking private lessons from one of the Top Dogs. If you are one of the better students, they'll pass you their overflow. It's like a buy in. PLUS you'll have a trade to fall back on when gigs are slow
 
I may get roasted for this, but I would go to a trade school in either LA or NY, learn a trade ; while taking private lessons from one of the Top Dogs. If you are one of the better students, they'll pass you their overflow. It's like a buy in. PLUS you'll have a trade to fall back on when gigs are slow

Yeah, it can be a good idea to do that. But I think when your young, you should spend all of your free time practicing! But money doesn't just fall into your hands. And apart from drumming, i'm not good with my hands, i hate all that trade stuff. Not a handy man, not a mans man!
 
Yeah, it can be a good idea to do that. But I think when your young, you should spend all of your free time practicing! But money doesn't just fall into your hands. And apart from drumming, i'm not good with my hands, i hate all that trade stuff. Not a handy man, not a mans man!

I think you will learn how to do stuff like that soon enough. ;)
 
Well, you know, learning how to be good at other things isn't a bad thing.

I'm fortunate to have learned about pro audio or I wouldn't be where I am now. And the cool thing is, it affords me my drumming, allows me to say no to certain gigs. Before my professional career, I had to say 'yes' to everything (and really, sometimes you earn every penny!), never had a regular life, couldn't plan vacations, didn't have health or retirement benefits, or a nice house. My lifestyle may be a little pedestrian but you know, I like where I'm at. Two cars, the ability to do what me and the wife want. Eat out all the time.

I don't mean this to be negative, because I love making music and drumming, but after a while, you just get tired of being poor. I'm in Southern California, and I can literally reach out and make contact with the high-powered music contractors and learn from the best musicians in the world, but for some reason, I like being the guy making them all sound good. I'm just outside of their periphery and it's ok. If they never call me to play, I'm all right with that. And I think my music and my drumming sound better because I'm not under this pressure to be great all the time.

And I can get away from it when I want, too.

But that's just where my life has lead. I suppose we all find out where we're going in the end on our own. I totally wish you and many others luck on having a viable music career. It is a great pursuit, and lots of people get there. Just try to keep everything real, ya' know?
 
Well, you know, learning how to be good at other things isn't a bad thing.

I'm fortunate to have learned about pro audio or I wouldn't be where I am now. And the cool thing is, it affords me my drumming, allows me to say no to certain gigs. Before my professional career, I had to say 'yes' to everything (and really, sometimes you earn every penny!), never had a regular life, couldn't plan vacations, didn't have health or retirement benefits, or a nice house. My lifestyle may be a little pedestrian but you know, I like where I'm at. Two cars, the ability to do what me and the wife want. Eat out all the time.

I don't mean this to be negative, because I love making music and drumming, but after a while, you just get tired of being poor. I'm in Southern California, and I can literally reach out and make contact with the high-powered music contractors and learn from the best musicians in the world, but for some reason, I like being the guy making them all sound good. I'm just outside of their periphery and it's ok. If they never call me to play, I'm all right with that. And I think my music and my drumming sound better because I'm not under this pressure to be great all the time.

And I can get away from it when I want, too.

But that's just where my life has lead. I suppose we all find out where we're going in the end on our own. I totally wish you and many others luck on having a viable music career. It is a great pursuit, and lots of people get there. Just try to keep everything real, ya' know?

Thanks man, you seem to have gotten what you want, good for you.I suppose, I'm still 18, and have a long way yet to figuiring out what i will do with my life. Pretty cool that your life still (in a way) rotates around the music biz, so your getting the best of both worlds.But again, I'm young and stupid, and only have eyes for creating music. Ah well long way to go yet,my only job now is to practice and network! \later man.
 
Not to lengthen what I said earlier, but when I give high school seminars to students who want to be performers, I just tell them in the end to calculate out how much money they need to maintain the lifestyle they have living with mom and dad - taking into account the car and health insurance too. And then make your art pay for that. If you focus on it and come up with a plan, and then make it happen, then you're good!

But when I was 18? Yeah, all I wanted to do was practice and gig. Then I auditioned for the Mouse and it was all over....
 
Well, to tie in my sugestion w/Bo's posts : Pro Audio IS A TRADE !! Maybe go to a really good school in LA/NY which teaches that, and do the private lessons busy pros who record/tours/gigs who are GOOD teachers as well. You can test your stuff out at the jams. Going to a University for a Music degree eats up serious shedding time. I resemble that remark. Why get bogged down with writing some stupid research paper about a topic that sucks, and doing math problems that are about as useful as one of my farts ! You could learn a trade relevant to the field. The soundmen ALWAYS WIN !! If you liken the music business to a Casino, the musicians in the band are the gamblers playing Blackjack, and the soundmen are the dealers ! The House always wins

-G
 
Thanks Geoff.

I do let the artist know that we're working as a team to get the best possible sound. But I guess the truth is out! ;)

One year we had the Beach Boys out at the California Adventure doing a concert and the rental drum set shows up from SIR while we're building the stage. I set them up and tuned 'em. The drummer shows up hours later, sits down and doesn't have to adjust anything. He was jazzed the audio guy did this for him!

He never did get me that $20 I jokingly told him he owed me, though.
 
Yeah, it can be a good idea to do that. But I think when your young, you should spend all of your free time practicing!

Yes, if you have ambitions of being a professional musician, you need to be pretty single minded about it for at least the better part of your young adulthood. Your value in the tech/education/music-related jobs will be minimal if you haven't made a serious effort at being a musician, as far as I'm concerned. All the other jobs in the world are still going to be there if you decide at age 30 (or 40) that you don't care for the life of an artist.

You'll find your true level of commitment in the next few years. If you're the kind of person who needs to drive a new car, make frequent trips to the mall, and own all the latest consumer crap to feel human, you could probably save yourself a lot of time and heartache by dropping music now and doing something else. I would only get into the "industry" part of the business if it's what you really want to do; if you just fall back on it because you failed as a musician, you're not going to be any good at it, or happy. There are a million careers that pay better and are more satisfying than being a soundman. And keep in mind that you're never more than 1-4 years of training away from something better-paying- people change careers all the time.

Re: where to go to school: a lot of guys do the bulk of their schooling wherever is convenient, and only after they're pretty burning go to places like Berklee for a semester or two to make contacts. You could spend the next five years practicing your ass off, learning as much as you possibly can about music, doing as many of every type of gig that you possibly can, and then go to Berklee when you're 23-25. I wouldn't go to an expensive school for the purpose of getting your stuff together.
 
Yes, if you have ambitions of being a professional musician, you need to be pretty single minded about it for at least the better part of your young adulthood. Your value in the tech/education/music-related jobs will be minimal if you haven't made a serious effort at being a musician, as far as I'm concerned. All the other jobs in the world are still going to be there if you decide at age 30 (or 40) that you don't care for the life of an artist.

time.

Re: where to go to school: a lot of guys do the bulk of their schooling wherever is convenient, and only after they're pretty burning go to places like Berklee for a semester or two to make contacts. You could spend the next five years practicing your ass off, learning as much as you possibly can about music, doing as many of every type of gig that you possibly can, and then go to Berklee when you're 23-25. I wouldn't go to an expensive school for the purpose of getting your stuff together.

Thanks lads, all food for thought. The soundman thing does sound interesting, but if i was to do that, then i would just get a normal job you know? I'm definatly not getting into music for the money, so why compramise? All or nothing i'd say, and atleast if i get the nothing i tried. And yeah, like you were saying, luckily i don't give a damn about having a sweet ride (car, not cymbal...i need a god one of those!), or even money for expensive clothes like pretty much everyone my age. Like I was saying to my parents, I don't mind having to start a new career at 29 or 30, you only live once (as far as i know) and it's my life! (quote from Mark Ruffalo). But what you were saying Todd is interesting. Stay where I am and try and get good, then go. But the pitty is that there are no good musicians around my parts, and thats how you get good really, but it is interesting. But being a sound engingineer never interested me. Just knowing about studio work may help, but not fully becoming an engineer
 
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