Notes for tuning drums

jcpc88

Member
As far as I know, drums are rythmic instruments, therefore they are not written on a pentagram using a key. After doing some research, I found that apparently the drums CAN be tunned using A,B,C,D,E...scales, as if it was a guitar, bass.....anyone knows a standard tuning key? If so, can I use a guitar tuner, to pick the sound my drum kit is producing, so they are all tune in the same key?

I have a tension watch, but that only tells me if the drum is in tune with itself, not if it is tune with the rest of my kit...
 
Im going to sound dumb when i say this but giving the style of music i play i usually keep my bass drum in the same key as the top string of the guitar. the toms and other things im not really sure of, i just start off with my smallest tom and work my way around the kit making each tom a little deeper than the next.

But from what ive been told it should just be the bass drum thats tuned to a certain key. But what do i know...i just hit things with sticks :p
 
Yes, theoretically you can tune to individual notes. But I've always asked the question, 'why would you want to?'

This is like a belief argument, and I'll be the first to say that you can do whatever you want with your drums. I know Ginger Baker is a big proponent of tuning to individual notes.

That said, I think the pitch is so undetermined that it really doesn't matter from the audience end. They hear drums. Unless you're playing tympani, individual notes are not going to be perceived by the audience. If I see three toms on a kit, I'd like to hear a three tone difference between the three, and that's all I'm asking for.

Besides, what if you tune to specific notes (and given the audience could actually hear it) in say, the key of C. You have three toms and tune to a C triad, C, E, and G. And then the band decides to play a tune in D-flat, or G-flat, or B-flat. You're now tuned to notes that aren't part of those keys. Instant tonal mayhem! What to do? What to do?

And if you play DW drums, they come stamped with a letter inside telling you, the buyer, that that drum will resonate best tuned at that note. Now John Goode is telling you how to tune your drums. I don't know the man, but I'm the one running the show from the kit, so I'd respectfully ask him to get off my stage!
 
As far as I know, drums are rythmic instruments, therefore they are not written on a pentagram using a key. After doing some research, I found that apparently the drums CAN be tunned using A,B,C,D,E...scales, as if it was a guitar, bass.....anyone knows a standard tuning key? If so, can I use a guitar tuner, to pick the sound my drum kit is producing, so they are all tune in the same key?

I have a tension watch, but that only tells me if the drum is in tune with itself, not if it is tune with the rest of my kit...

A guitar or bass string produces a strong fundamental frequency, whereas the sound of a drum is usually too replete with harmonics to be tuned with a guitar tuner. Even if you can get a drum to produce a solid fundamental, it will not, under normal circumstances, sustain very long, making electronic tuning just about impossible.

There really exists no "standard" tuning for a drumset, just that the toms gets lower as they get larger. Bass and snare drums are not typically tuned to a note, because a snare produces white noise mostly, and the average bass drum produces a short burst of a very low frequencies in combination with some high frequencies. Since there is little sustain, there is little worry about the "notes", and more attention is paid to the character and timbre of the sound.

With toms, though, there is more opportunity for pitch to be perceived, but still there is no standard. Across genres of music, tuning can be different (for example, jazz tunings are frequently higher than rock tunings), but so can drum size and head choice. To tune a tom to a specific pitch typically requires a piano or guitar or bass, and a skilled ear. But it can be done, I do it all the time! I like my 16 inch floor tom tuned to an E, and my 13 tom to a B. When I play them together, the interval is a 5th and it sounds huge (perfect 4th sounds great, too). And if I'm in the studio, and there is time (there frequently isn't), yes, I will tune the toms to the key of the song. Most of the time it's not necessary, though. It's usually more important that the toms jive with each other.

A wonderful example of tom tuning is Danny Carey's drums on Tool records. The toms are each tuned to a note of the D minor triad (D, F, or A). Big toms rolls and grooves blend with the music nicely (I don't think there exists a Tool song that is NOT written in the key of D minor!).
 
Yes, theoretically you can tune to individual notes. But I've always asked the question, 'why would you want to?'

This is like a belief argument, and I'll be the first to say that you can do whatever you want with your drums. I know Ginger Baker is a big proponent of tuning to individual notes.

That said, I think the pitch is so undetermined that it really doesn't matter from the audience end. They hear drums. Unless you're playing tympani, individual notes are not going to be perceived by the audience. If I see three toms on a kit, I'd like to hear a three tone difference between the three, and that's all I'm asking for.

Besides, what if you tune to specific notes (and given the audience could actually hear it) in say, the key of C. You have three toms and tune to a C triad, C, E, and G. And then the band decides to play a tune in D-flat, or G-flat, or B-flat. You're now tuned to notes that aren't part of those keys. Instant tonal mayhem! What to do? What to do?

And if you play DW drums, they come stamped with a letter inside telling you, the buyer, that that drum will resonate best tuned at that note. Now John Goode is telling you how to tune your drums. I don't know the man, but I'm the one running the show from the kit, so I'd respectfully ask him to get off my stage!

Your argument about tuning to a particular key being a problem doesn't wash. Under that premise, your drum kit not tuned to specific pitches but simply "intervals" is likely out of tune in every key yet its not a problem apparently.

Tuning to pitches for the purposes of getting accurate intervals between toms is fine. Toms blend so much better when you do. They don't however produce enough fundamental or typically sustain long enough for it to be a concern in terms of what key the drum's may or may not be tuned to.
 
Your argument about tuning to a particular key being a problem doesn't wash.
He's right about most drums not having strong fundamental pitches and functioning more like "pitch clusters"--that's why they're considered "instruments of indefinite pitch". If you want a drum with a stronger fundamental, you need to construct it in particular ways, out of particular materials, hence instruments like timpani.
Under that premise, your drum kit not tuned to specific pitches but simply "intervals" is likely out of tune in every key yet its not a problem apparently.
Huh? It would be "out of tune" if they were instruments of definite pitch and not particular notes relative to the material being played on other instruments. It's rather that if we claim that a tom-tom, say, was clearly producing a C, then if the guitars are playing a B or C# chord, your tom-tom should sound dissonant relative to the chord. But it doesn't, because your tom-tom is producing more of a pitch cluster, or, it's more an instrument of indefinite pitch. You can obviously have your toms tuned higher or lower, and you can even guesstimate at the interval differences of the clusters, but if you looked at the soundwaves on an oscilloscope, you'd see just that--frequency clusters, not definite pitches.
 
He's right about most drums not having strong fundamental pitches and functioning more like "pitch clusters"--that's why they're considered "instruments of indefinite pitch". If you want a drum with a stronger fundamental, you need to construct it in particular ways, out of particular materials, hence instruments like timpani. Huh? It would be "out of tune" if they were instruments of definite pitch and not particular notes relative to the material being played on other instruments. It's rather that if we claim that a tom-tom, say, was clearly producing a C, then if the guitars are playing a B or C# chord, your tom-tom should sound dissonant relative to the chord. But it doesn't, because your tom-tom is producing more of a pitch cluster, or, it's more an instrument of indefinite pitch. You can obviously have your toms tuned higher or lower, and you can even guesstimate at the interval differences of the clusters, but if you looked at the soundwaves on an oscilloscope, you'd see just that--frequency clusters, not definite pitches.

If you can tune to intervals they are not "instruments of indefinite pitch". You most certainly can tune to intervals. You can even use a tuner to do it. So if toms are tuned to intervals of 3rds or 4ths but are all 50 cents flat of concert pitch you will be out of tune in every key.
 
If you can tune to intervals they are not "instruments of indefinite pitch" You most certainly can tune to intervals. You can even use a tuner to do it. Your premise is therefore not correct.
if I play C, C#, D, D# and E, then I play A,Bb, B, C, and C#, I've just played two pitch clusters a minor third apart, right?
 
if I play C, C#, D, D# and E, then I play A,Bb, B, C, and C#, I've just played two pitch clusters a minor third apart, right?

Huh?

Yes A and C for example are a minor 3rd apart. So what? What do random notes have to do with anything? If my 8" is B and my 10" is G they are a major third apart. I tune them to those pitches with a keyboard or pitch pipe. Toms are not of "indefinite pitch" and they are certainly not "pitch clusters". They have a fundamental pitch and harmonics thereof like most every other instrument.
 
A pitch cluster. I can walk up to the piano and play C, C#, D, D# and E all at the same time. That's conventionally considered a "pitch cluster". No particular pitch there dominates. It's a bit of a blur.

Then I could play A, Bb, B, C and C# all at the same time. Another pitch cluster, a minor third lower than the first.

I've just played two pitch clusters at a definite interval relative to one another.
 
A pitch cluster. I can walk up to the piano and play C, C#, D, D# and E all at the same time. That's conventionally considered a "pitch cluster". No particular pitch there dominates. It's a bit of a blur.

Then I could play A, Bb, B, C and C# all at the same time. Another pitch cluster, a minor third lower than the first.

I've just played two pitch clusters at a definite interval relative to one another.

OK but so what? That's not what is happening with a drum. If it were the disonances of the minor 2nds of those 4 note grouping would make every interval sound like ass and that is clearly not the case.
 
OK but so what?
So "If you can tune x to intervals then x is not of indefinite pitch" is false. Cluster chords are of indefinite pitch. Yet we can specify exact intervallic relationships for them, in at least some cases.
That's not what is happening with a drum.
You can see that drums are of indefinite pitch on an oscilloscope. I had mentioned that already.
If it were the disonances of the minor 2nds of those 4 note grouping would make every interval sound like ass
lol--you're forwarding an argument based on whether something "sounds like ass"? I like the humor of that, but if we're not being funny, it's not a good argument.
 
I've heard both camps about tuning to specific notes and tuning to your ear.

One technique I've used is tuning the kit to match the intervals of the melody used to start horse races, at least here in the States. For a five piece kit, start out on the highest tom, work down the toms, and finish with the kick. If sounds match the intervals of the horse racing melody, you're good to go.
 
... For a five piece kit, start out on the highest tom, work down the toms, and finish with the kick.

Just throwing this out there-- when I tune, I usually actually start with the bass drum, then go to the lowest tom, and work my way up. This is partly because I play rock and tune the bass and toms fairly low, and also because I find it easier to have to tune a drum up if it's too low, rather than have to tune a drum lower if it the pitch is too high relative to the rest of the drums. Not to knock you for what you do, just sharing my technique. If starting at the top and moving down from there works for you, then more power to you.

There are a couple of problems I see with the thread starter's original idea, which has been discussed a lot already. First of all, although it's already been said, it's totally impractical to try tuning your drums before every song to match the key of the song. Also, who's to say that you can match every single note that the other members of the band play/sing? What if the song has a key change? What if the song has a million different chords? You can't be expected to match pitch with the other members of the band because the typical drumset isn't designed to do that.

I don't have a lot of experience with this so I could be wrong, but when I'm listening to music, my mind hears the harmonic structure of the song, that is, the chords and melody and everything, from the instruments that are meant to do provide it-- guitars, bass guitar, piano, singing (as far as rock music goes). In my experience, the drums don't "contribute" to the harmonic structure. If there ever was a song that I've listened to where (just for an example) the guitarist played a G major chord and the drummer played a tom at the same time that was tuned to a non-chord tone (let's say, a C natural), then it's never bothered me. Out of all the music I've listened to, there's got to be a large number of such incidences, but I've never been listening to music and suddenly think, "Wow! That drum is really dissonant when played with the other instruments in that part of the song." Maybe it's because-- though I do believe that toms will carry a definite pitch (sometimes with some degree of downwards pitch bend)-- the sound is so staccato and such a different timbre that the fundamental pitch gets lost to the listener? I couldn't tell you because I've never studied the idea that much in-depth.

All that being said, I will typically try to tune a perfect 4th or perfect 5th between my kit's 12" and 14" toms. I do believe that when you play a pattern between several toms, it's nice to hear exact intervals between them. It'd be an interesting experiment, maybe, to have a drummer tune three toms to form a diminished chord, or even a chord out of equal temperament (having some drums be 50 cents flat or something), then play a pattern that incorporates all three drums, and see if anyone would actually notice...
 
I don't have a lot of experience with this so I could be wrong, but when I'm listening to music, my mind hears the harmonic structure of the song, that is, the chords and melody and everything, from the instruments that are meant to do provide it-- guitars, bass guitar, piano, singing (as far as rock music goes). In my experience, the drums don't "contribute" to the harmonic structure. If there ever was a song that I've listened to where (just for an example) the guitarist played a G major chord and the drummer played a tom at the same time that was tuned to a non-chord tone (let's say, a C natural), then it's never bothered me. Out of all the music I've listened to, there's got to be a large number of such incidences, but I've never been listening to music and suddenly think, "Wow! That drum is really dissonant when played with the other instruments in that part of the song." Maybe it's because-- though I do believe that toms will carry a definite pitch (sometimes with some degree of downwards pitch bend)-- the sound is so staccato and such a different timbre that the fundamental pitch gets lost to the listener? I couldn't tell you because I've never studied the idea that much in-depth.
I think it's a combination of a few different things:

You can subjectively focus on particular frequencies that you're hearing when you strike the drum--it's kind of like subjectively focusing on particular "dots" in a visual white noise field (although the drum's frequencies are far more limited than a white noise field, of course--I'm just using that as a way to help "picture" the phenomenon I'm referring to). By doing that, the drum will sound more like a particular pitch to your ear than it would prove to be if you analyzed it on an oscilloscope.

As I mentioned, with some drums, you can get much closer to a definite pitch. A non-controversial case of that would be timpani. So it's possible due to particularities of materials, including specific tensions of some types of heads, that the pitch characteristics of a particular drum won't be as dense, making it easier to subjectively focus in on particular pitches.

You can definitely approach drums "melodically"--I try to focus on that myself. This is actually assisted by drums being of indefinite pitch. As I alluded to above, pitch clusters are not the same thing as white (or even pink) noise. They have pitch ranges that are higher or lower. Playing melodically simply involves using the higher and lower pitches in a melodic way--to play patterns, phrases, etc. that mimic the intervallic shapes of pitched melodies. Drums being of indefinite pitch is an asset there, as human ears tend to interpret the drums so that they match pitched instruments. In other words, if you have a bunch of toms, and you follow the contours of a melody--follow the pitches as they go up and down, people will tend to hear it as you matching the melody. The melody could be in Ab, say on a sax, and then the saxophonist could transpose it to A, and you wouldn't have to change the tuning of your toms and people would still tend to hear it that way.

As for the dissonance not being apparent being a matter of the envelope of the sound (attack, decay, sustain, release for basic parameters there) or timbre, I do not believe that is the case, and here's why. Imagine that we had an orchestra, and we scored something so that various instruments had a very staccato C against a G major chord, we'd still be able to perceive the dissonance, whether it was played by a double bass, or tuba, or bassoon, or piccolo, etc. If we augmented the orchestra with a synthesizer, that should still be the case with various synthesized, staccato sounds. It would only be when we start making the soundwaves more complex--so that enough fundamentals were occurring simultaneously for it to be difficult to peg just what pitch it is, that we'd have more of "just a sound" there than a dissonance, I believe.
 
Your argument about tuning to a particular key being a problem doesn't wash. Under that premise, your drum kit not tuned to specific pitches but simply "intervals" is likely out of tune in every key yet its not a problem apparently.

Tuning to pitches for the purposes of getting accurate intervals between toms is fine. Toms blend so much better when you do. They don't however produce enough fundamental or typically sustain long enough for it to be a concern in terms of what key the drum's may or may not be tuned to.

That's what I said. I guess my sarcasm didn't come across on that one. ;)
 
And if you play DW drums, they come stamped with a letter inside telling you, the buyer, that that drum will resonate best tuned at that note. Now John Goode is telling you how to tune your drums. I don't know the man, but I'm the one running the show from the kit, so I'd respectfully ask him to get off my stage!
Really? (I obviously have never had a DW kit, and they're so trendy now, I definitely do not want one.) Maybe that's part of the reason that folks are believing that toms and such are instruments of definite pitch now.

Hmm, I wonder if some folks believe that plain old cymbals--you know, regular crashes, rides, etc.--are tuned to particular pitches, too.
 
A pitch cluster. I can walk up to the piano and play C, C#, D, D# and E all at the same time. That's conventionally considered a "pitch cluster". No particular pitch there dominates. It's a bit of a blur.

Then I could play A, Bb, B, C and C# all at the same time. Another pitch cluster, a minor third lower than the first.

I've just played two pitch clusters at a definite interval relative to one another.

Are you implying that a drum sounds like a pitch cluster? I'll admit it's possible to tune a drum such that the pitch bends up or down from one pitch to another (too much of this is ugly), but I would argue that there is one fundamental pitch being created. Yes, there are other harmonics, and other pitches as well, but a singular, fundamental pitch overwhelms all else, and it is not a cluster of notes.


To Bo Eder and AudioWonderland -- Give a listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=manxPVTLth8

and see if you hear pitch in the toms. I hear them as follows, from lowest to highest:

C# E G# E B C#

These notes are all in the C#minor scale, which is also the key of the song. Common intervals, too. C# is obviously the root, the E is a minor third, the G# is a fifth, and the B is a minor seventh. It is surely no accident the drums are tuned this way, for this song. And it is definitely a concern for the listener that the drums are tuned as such!
 
Are you implying that a drum sounds like a pitch cluster?
That they sound like and that they are, yes. This isn't controversial. It's easy to show objectively.
I'll admit it's possible to tune a drum such that the pitch bends up or down from one pitch to another (too much of this is ugly),
Bending? What would that have to do with the issue?
but I would argue that there is one fundamental pitch being created.
Okay, but objectively, that's not the case. And that's why drums are considered instruments of indefinite pitch. Again, that's not controversial.
 
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These notes are all in the C#minor scale, which is also the key of the song. Common intervals, too. C# is obviously the root, the E is a minor third, the G# is a fifth, and the B is a minor seventh. It is surely no accident the drums are tuned this way, for this song. And it is definitely a concern for the listener that the drums are tuned as such!
Oops, I accidentally deleted that part before.

So when he does something like "Take Me Home" after that, which is in Eb, a key a whole step higher, what does he do? Are the drums dissonant on that tune? Do they change the toms first? Does he have them all rigged to a timpani-like foot pedal to raise the pitch a whole tone? What?
 
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