What makes it real?

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Here's an interesting discussion that flashed before me as I was answering Bob's thread about his incoming vintage Ludwigs....

He said he bought himself a 2012 Club Date Fab 3 kit and fell in love with it. So much so, that he wanted the real thing. So he buys a vintage Ludwig from perhaps 1968 (I happen to really like the new Club Dates myself).

I thought this could be a topic of discussion. So what makes a real Ludwig, real? You could apply this to any manufacturer. I'm sure with the hoo-hah regarding Yamaha, undoubtedly someone will come out and say, I have real Yamaha's from the early 80s or something. I'm not sure if anyone considers Ludwigs made in China as real, or Sonors not from Germany as the real thing.

Of course, I'm proud of both my kits, the 78 Ludwig zep kit and my 77 Slingerlands, so I guess I have the real thing. But perhaps if I were speaking to an older generation, they'd say that is all hog-wash as Ludwigs and Slingerlands' hey-day were probably in the 50s according to them.

So with all the manufacturers offering so many different lines and places of manufacture, is there a concensus as to what a real (insert your favorite brand here) drumkit is? Should people be disappointed if they buy a Sonor from China? What do you think makes it real?

I suppose this only pertains to the big manufacturers. Those of you who play custom kits like Gurus or Craviottos, this probably doesn't apply to you since we're not talking about mass-produced drums.
 
I have to say it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way, and music happens.
 
I am not on the fence about this question...I'm on both sides of it.

On one hand, whatever the name badge says, it is. If it's a $350, or a $3500 Yammy...it's a Yammy; and it's just as real either way.

On the other hand, I believe that what makes a manufacturer unique almost always depends on their flagship product. So, unless you are buying custom drums from, say, Gretsch, you are just getting a kit that has a Gretsch badge on it (and some silve paint). This kit will in no way reflect the pride-in-craftsmanship that the company has at the custom level, and is in fact just another mass-produced kit. So, the non-custom kits would not be real Gretsch kits....just have the badges.

When it comes down to it though, I feel that my Swingstar kit is a real Tama.
 
Bo..most collectors reguard 60's keystone badge and early 70's B/O badged original sets to be in general the most collectable.especially drums covered in oyster black pearl like the ones played by a certain drummer from Liverpool.

In truth,drums wrapped in oyster black pearl aren't rare at all.It was the most popular wrap in the Ludwig catalog by far and more drums were produced in that wrap than any other wrap.

That's not to say Ludwigs from other vintages aren't collectable,they are,but Ludwigs from those years are special because of the music that they helped make.The music made during that period turned the world on it's ear.

During that period of time,Ludwig was running 24 hours a day,6 days a week and turning out over 100 drum sets a day and everything else in the catalog as well.Such as marching drums,tympany's,marimbas,Xylophones,and percussion items like tamborines and sound effects.

I guess Ludwig Chinese made drums might not be reguarded as "real" Ludwigs,but there are those who say that about Monroe made Ludwigs,and only the Chicago made drums are the real thing.

Another fact is that during most of those years,both Bill Ludwig senior and Bill Ludwig Jr. were in charge and the company was under family control.A little extra mojo there.

While from a collectors viewpoint that may be true as of right now,that too will change over time...so NO hot rodding.If you have any era of Ludwigs,leave them in original condition.They could as the 60's drums did,double or in some cases,be worth MANY time more than the original price.

Steve B
 
I have to say it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way, and music happens.

I relate to this answer more than I admit. Flagship drums are indeed the flagship for a reason, but I feel bad for a kid who's into it yet is made to feel inadequate because he has his favorite brand, but they're not the flagship drums that attracted him to them in the first place (due to financial considerations or other factors). This is why I think the Club Dates are so special. They're Club Dates with the low price tag and available to all. I generally am excited by whatever a kid has to play, because he has something to play, and that's the cool thing.

Drums that started an era or a innovation I would consider real also. The 70s Tama Superstars and Imperialstars really defined 'tough' back then - although I think their fate would've been much different had the Rogers Drum Company not taken such a downspin. In addition to that, Pearl probably wouldn't have existed the way they did had Rogers really locked in the L-arm idea for themselves.
 
A lot of times, drums are sought during an era not so much for how they were made, but for who played them during that time. Look at your recent experience with Supras and tell me that's not the case... why you see B/O LM402s going for twice the price of brand new ones with keystone badges on eBay, for instance. Guitars are the same way (pre-CBS Fenders, for example). Yet you put it onstage, mic it up, and only the drummer knows.
 
I guess what is "real" to a collector is different than what is "real" to kid without much money.
 
That's an interesting question Mo, I'm not an expert by all mean, but this is my take on it.

Let say for argument sake that we take a kit from brand X with 7 mil thick shells made of 6 ply of maple with a typical 45° bearing edge manufactured in 1980 for example, now let's compare that kit with exactly the same specs (which often happen) from the same manufacturer 10 years later in 1990, what would have change in terms of sound, not much in my book, aesthetically the kit might have changed, with new finishes, new lugs, new hardware etc, but when you fit the same heads combo and you tune it, you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference, I repeat, we're talking same thickness, same amount of maple ply and same bearing edge. So what make it real... the way is build, but our eyes want us to believe differently, it's more how it looks than how it sounds IMO, I'd go even further, if you buy a kit from brand Z with the same specs as brand X, chances are they'll sound very similar.

That's the very reason why I haven't change my faithful top of the line kit I bought in the mid 80's, I'm not convinced that a 6 ply maple kit will sound much different if any than my current 25 years old kit.

Now if you change the specs, different wood species, different thickness, different bearing edge etc. It's another ball game, a maple kit will sound different than a birch kit with greater or smaller thickness and a 30° bearing edge.

You also mentioned custom kits in the OP, the new Guru Origin are not "custom" drums, they're a line of their own, ie: the performance range and the classic range, those kits are standard Guru line, only the Custom range allows you some custom orders, so they're similar as the major manufacturers in that sense.
 
That's an interesting question Mo, I'm not an expert by all mean, but this is my take on it.

Let say for argument sake that we take a kit from brand X with 7 mil thick shells made of 6 ply of maple with a typical 45° bearing edge manufactured in 1980 for example, now let's compare that kit with exactly the same specs (which often happen) from the same manufacturer 10 years later in 1990, what would have change in terms of sound, not much in my book, aesthetically the kit might have changed, with new finishes, new lugs, new hardware etc, but when you fit the same heads combo and you tune it, you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference, I repeat, we're talking same thickness, same amount of maple ply and same bearing edge. So what make it real... the way is build, but our eyes want us to believe differently, it's more how it looks than how it sounds IMO, I'd go even further, if you buy a kit from brand Z with the same specs as brand X, chances are they'll sound very similar.

That's the very reason why I haven't change my faithful top of the line kit I bought in the mid 80's, I'm not convinced that a 6 ply maple kit will sound much different if any than my current 25 years old kit.

Now if you change the specs, different wood species, different thickness, different bearing edge etc. It's another ball game, a maple kit will sound different than a birch kit with greater or smaller thickness and a 30° bearing edge.

You also mentioned custom kits in the OP, the new Guru Origin are not "custom" drums, they're a line of their own, ie: the performance range and the classic range, those kits are standard Guru line, only the Custom range allows you some custom orders, so they're similar as the major manufacturers in that sense.

But your phrase "top of the line kit"...why did you include that there? I concur that there's probably no difference in the same exact thing made at different times. But when someone says "I wanted the real thing" after having experienced the company's third- or fourth- down in their product catalog, what prompts that phrase, exactly?

Does that mean a guy who grew up will always consider his student-line Tama Swingstars from 1985 real Tamas? I'm pretty sure we all have our ideas of what the ideal drums are for each of us, but when we say things like "I like real Yamahas" or "I like real Rogers", are we all on the same page? I think this is subjective at best.
 
I think MAD hit the nail on the head (no....I'm not admitting that I was wrong :). Who could argue with the way the drums are constructed? I mean, it'd have to be exact replication, but that happens in the industry quite a bit, and across brand-lines at that.

EDIT: After re-reading my post I realized that while agreeing with MAD, I also totally disregarded the original question....because if identical manufacture was used across two different brands of drums (maybe even from different eras), say Tama and Pearl, which one is the real kit there? The original? Or aren't they both as real....this question is more fun to ponder than I thought at first...it's definitely totally subjective.
 
To the original question:

I don't know. Some of what people consider real is a bit silly.

For example, when DW stopped using Keller shells and started making their own shells, it could be argued the DW made shells were more "real" yet in the last few years, posts and ads have popped up touting that the Keller-era DW's are more desirable.

With Yamaha Recording Customs, the Y.E.S. mounts are supposed to be an "improvement" yet you see posts taking the position that the pre-Y.E.S. versions are more desirable or more "real". There even a thread on which years of Yamaha RC's are better, never mind they've always been made in same factory on the same machines since day one. And now it turns out it's not even a Yamaha factory.

And while it's gotten less so over time, vintage Ludwigs from the 1960's have always been worth more than Ludwigs from the 1970's. Take two identical drums, and the one made December 31st, 1969 is generally worth more than the one made Jan 2nd, 1970.

It's all incredibly subjective.


I have to say it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way, and music happens.

^ Now this is an awesome statement.
 
I have to say it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way, and music happens.

That's right!!

I have "real" Ludwig Classic Maples...from 2010.

That whole vintage "real" argument can be kinda silly sometimes. Is my 5 year old Supra not as good as a vintage one? Okay, so it doesn't have the built in muffler. Can anyone in the audience really tell a difference between say a '68 Supra vs a 2013 Supra?
 
Can anyone in the audience really tell a difference between say a '68 Supra vs a 2013 Supra?

Nope. But before this thread digresses to the point that "any toy drumset will do", what makes what you have the real thing? For instance, I have a 1980 Ludwig Supraphonic - what makes me not pine for another snare? I suppose that would be the feeling I'm looking for here. What I have must be the real thing because I'm not wanting anything else? When someone shows me the new wunderdrums, what makes me happy to have what I have? The fact that they're real?

I suppose I'm debating between the blue pill or the red pill ;)
 
Some would say that my Gretsch Catalina Club Jazz drums are not really Gretsch because they were made in China. I do think they are Gretsch drums because they sound like Gretsch drums, and Gretsch says they are. To each his/her own. I just cannot make myself spend three times as much for the same sized drums that sound only a little better. The USA made Gretsch drums do sound better, but the difference is not huge. Some will disagree with this, but life would be boring if we were all the same. Peace and goodwill.
 
I dunno. I have a perfectly serviceable Ludwig aluminum snare that I like very well. But, you know, it's not an Acrolite. And if I get an Acrolite, will i settle for a Blacrolite, or will i hold out for a non-painted early model?

Definitely blue pill.
 
Indeed. Its sounds as it they are not made in the home town of the company, they are somehow less. Im sure Gretsch et. al. have quality controls in other countries, and would make the Catalina line the same way if it was made here or China. My drums are the real thing. They were made by Gretsch, they have Gretsch badges on them and they were sold as Gretsch. Not as the other Gretsch, or Chinese Gretsch. I think to suggest that drums have to be the "real thing" and that you can't buy anything better in their line shows a ton of snobbery.


The word "vintage" is VERY commonly being mis-used in eBay auctions where it's used as an adjective in place of "old" or "antique." E.g. "This is a vintage knife."...a correct usage would be, "This is a nice old knife of WW2 vintage." I'm guessing people are hoping to grab some connotation of quality.
 
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Indeed. Its sounds as it they are not made in the home town of the company, they are somehow less. Im sure Gretsch et. al. have quality controls in other countries, and would make the Catalina line the same way if it was made here or China. My drums are the real thing. They were made by Gretsch, they have Gretsch badges on them and they were sold as Gretsch. Not as the other Gretsch, or Chinese Gretsch. I think to suggest that drums have to be the "real thing" and that you can't buy anything better in their line shows a ton of snobbery.

I get that too. So, Benny Greb with a set of SQ2's is ok, but if he were playing a Safari, than it's not? There's a certain line that's drawn when it comes to the pros. We all agree drums sound like drums, especially to guys like Benny - why would it matter that he has SQ2s? Even ?uestlove doesn't use his Breakbeats kit on the Jimmy Fallon show - I wonder why that is? Everyone is exposed to the best a company has to offer, yet they all have secondary lines for "the rest of us" to buy, eh?
 
Well to that point and knowing Gretsch, there are many pro's using Gretsch New Classics and now the new Brooklyn line. These are not the top Gretsch line but the sound is the priority to them. They could all afford USA Customs if they wished but there are features they like without waiting 6 months for drums and paying the additional expense for the "real Thing" they just know better
 
A Toyota that's built in the U.S. is still a "Japanese" vehicle and a Ford built in Canada is still and "American" vehicle.

We live in a world that has a world economy now. Gretsch, Ludwig, Sonor, Tama, (insert other brand names here) all have build factories in other locations for their entry, mid-point and professional lines of equipment.

it's basically the "CUSTOM" labeled equipment like the USA Customs, for example that are produced in the U.S. or the top of the line Sonors that are bult in Germany.

Look at all the cell phones. Apple iPhone, Samsung Galaxy, Motorola Razr, etc. They are all built in China or Taiwan or some place like that. And they're all top of the line products.
 
I have to say it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way, and music happens.

I like that.

As much as I like following all the history, the vintage this and that, and I admire the many drum kits shown on here, at the end of the day I have to say that the 'real' deal ...the real essence of drumming, is 99% the drummer.

Nothing pleases me more than seeing somebody kill it on some crappy old or mismatched drums, with cracked hihat etc., or better yet the dude busking with plastic tubs. That's real.

The kit is real as soon as somebody is playing it well with passion and vigour.

Sure I'd love to sit on Buddy's Slingerland's for an hour, and those old Ludwig's are more collectible than todays, but to me neither of these are no more 'real' than anybody else's kits including those rolling off the assembly line today.
 
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