"Rules" for fills ...?

Only place fills where they NEED to be placed. What is the one thing all of the greatest songs have in common? The drummer is keeping it simple. Whether you're playing for August Burns Red or Norah Jones, you just don't want to flood the song with unwanted, messy fills.
 
Bo Eder said:
I didn't fill for an entire band set at a restaurant once. It actually worked out really cool.
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Nothing? What defined a "fill" for this purpose? Just no playing over the obvious empty spots in the song, or nothing but straight beats? No cymbal embellishments?

This makes me curious. I might try it myself. Take it as a challenge to stay in good feel and be a bit interesting without filling.
 
JoeLackey said:
What is the one thing all of the greatest songs have in common? The drummer is keeping it simple. .
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there is nothing more untrue than this

no disrespect intended....but this is pure hogwash
 
I have an image in my mind of the progeneration of the term "fill"...

It was someone without the words trying to say they wanted more of the music from the drummer they were listening to to dominate the song being played.

...but if you say it the way I did, the drummer would garner equal credit/$.
 
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Bo Eder said:
I didn't fill for an entire band set at a restaurant once. It actually worked out really cool.
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Question: Did it actually serve the music any better than too many fills though?

I'm not trying to be a smartarse here mate. But I do wonder if a concious decision to "play no fill at all during this entire set" is as dogmatic an approach as someone who sets out to overplay and crowd the entire set with drumming clatter?

I've said it before on these forums. I'm in tune with those who say that our role as a drummer is to "serve the music".....but where I vary by definition is that I honestly believe that to "serve it" doesn't necessarily mean always bringing it bread and water, any more than it means always bringing it champagne and caviar.
Just as the music dictates that we not "tread on its toes" and overplay, shouldn't it also dictate that it's ok to set up or introduce (i.e fill) an accompanying passage? Shouldn't the mood of the individual piece dictate here......not the preconceived notions of the drummer determined not to fill just for the sake of it?

As I always say. Less IS indeed more.....unless more is actually required.

What do you guys reckon?
 
More interesting thoughts for me to digest.

These songs I'm trying to deal with - they're definitely shuffle beat. When he sings them on his own they sound "folky", they just bumble along all on a level. If that's what he wanted them to do, then just keeping the beat going with minimal embellishment would be appropriate - but he says "in his head" they're more blues/rock and that's what he wants to try to do with them.

The verses are 8 bars, with a 4 bar chorus, which repeats but with a stop on 1 of the 3rd bar (then a final bar).

I don't know what the idea of the 2 bar "filler" is - don't like it personally.

I realise it's impossible to finalise a drum part with no other instruments involved (yet) -just wanted to have an idea of what I'm aiming at, and to give him an idea of how they might sound "oomphed up". And - for me who's only ever really played covers - it's a new thing to try to work out where to oomph and where not to oomph. I don't think we're ever going to have the luxury of a producer !!
 
Daisy said:
I don't think we're ever going to have the luxury of a producer !!
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You are the producer in this case, because you're the one trying to make this song "work". You just happen to also be playing drums. But be a double agent and don't blow your cover!

Do you play any guitar or bass? (You should learn!) If a guitarist says "I want it to sound more blues rock", then that's cool, but he needs to be able to play it that way on the guitar, and not just in his head. If he plays in a simple style, then a simple drum beat will sound good. You can't expect a drum beat that's unrelated in terms of style to "work" or feel "correct". They'll clash, at least in mood, but probably in rhythm, too.

Ask him what songs he likes that have blues rock drums. Listen to them all and take note of how the guitar parts and drums relate to each other.

Songwriters are a funny bunch. Most amateur writers are quite creative, yet have done very little in the way of "research"; and some are not very creative, but know lots of theory and have learned hundreds of songs in lots of different styles. It's rare when a writer can be creative, but adhere to the conventions of a particular style at the same time.

So your best bet is to listen to some blues rock with him and figure out how the guitar part can be adjusted. Probably it's a matter of changing the strumming pattern or rhythm, or writing a riff instead of strumming chords. Remind him that you don't want to change the song itself, just the way its presented, and understand that changing the guitar part will probably make it difficult, or even impossible at this point, for him to sing along (no matter, just get the guitar and drums going, and the vocals can be figured out at a later date).

Or, this song can just be a simple folksy one, and the next one can be blues rock...

Good luck!
 
Gonna have to agree with gvda here.. it's all music.

Don't think about fills vs grooves; just listen and play what you feel would best serve to exaggerate the mood and movement of the music. That's performing... exaggeration of the truth (maybe a better term would be romanticizing).

EDIT: There are no hard and fast rules for anything. Just be yourself and never formulaic -- that's boring.
 
What the fill is plays a big part here. A simple and-one thing doesn't really distract and sets up a change. A nice simple linear pattern that fits with the groove of the song can pick up the energy without loosing the groove. In a shuffle, try playing a paradiddle between the cymbal and snare, I'm not sure what to call it, half note I guess, or each hit being an eighth note. Two cycles of right lead paradiddle in a measure. It keeps the swing going but breaks up the shuffle pattern enough to make a punctuation. Two measures of 16th note single strokes around the kit definitely pulls the attention away from the song and needs to be saved for when a lot of drama is needed.
 
larryace said:
I'll try Daisy. In lyric based music, generally speaking, no fills until the singer or soloist is done "speaking". (Even then might not be a good time either) You have to listen for the appropriate spaces. Not all spaces are appropriate to fill in. Spaces within a solo are fair game, it shows you're listening if you can drop a quick ditty in within a natural space in a solo. That usually works nicely, because you're not stepping on anyone. Music is like conversation. Don't be rude and interrupt. Don't think you have to mark every transition either (verse to bridge, chorus to solo, solo to verse etc.) It builds tension when you don't fill before the start of every solo. Small picture = "oh here comes a transition. A fill would fit there. Here I go. Wee! Big picture = "oh here comes a transition. I'm gonna save my ammo until the peak of the solo, right at the last second before it goes back into the verse. It will have much more impact there" Bam!

Seriously, fills should be necessary. Just because you can fit a fill in, doesn't mean it's necessary. I leave many a transition unfilled. Many. I hear a lot of drummers play things that aren't necessary, but the spot they pick is an "acceptable " place for a drummer to do something. IMO, that usually detracts, and tells me that the drummer doesn't have the big picture in their sights. Drummers typically play fills at the transitions. Fills aren't always the best choice at transitions. More times than not, just keeping the groove going during the transition works so much better. Fills release tension. Not filling builds tension. You have to pick the right spot to release. Just because a transition is approaching, that doesn't mean you have to do something there. You have to weigh if it's better to release, or better to hold off. Hey sometimes it is better to release. It's a musical maturity thing. When in doubt, don't fill, just keep on keepin on.

I try and keep the QNP going during a fill, lest you let it drop out and lose groove. In the blues based music I play, I pride myself in keeping the beat nearly all the time, because in blues, fills detract, unless they are necessary. I do ornament the beats with as much nuance as I can muster, that's where my focus is, and my fills are used only in spaces where it would sound worse not to fill.

When music goes from the one to the four, or from the four to the five, a lot of times, just marking it with a simple crash is better than leaving it alone. I don't consider that a fill though.

I cut loose on endings, but I don't hog anything or go on for another 10 seconds while the guitarist has his neck perched up in the air waiting for me to finish. That's rude. When someone lifts their neck up, I finish up whatever I'm doing, early if necessary, to make sure we look in sync. Very important for the guitarist to not leave them hanging. He/she will appreciate that. Endings....I like to think of them as a musical "dismount". Just like in the Olympics when they leave the balance beam. Gotta stick the landing.

Too many drummers think they are defined by their fills. That's their artistry. Hogwash, Drummers are defined by their beats and feels. Fills are a treat type of thing, not the main course. Drummers justify their overuse of fills by saying that the guitarist has so much freedom and can do almost anything at anytime, why can't I? Two different jobs, you cannot compare them. A drummer must know his role. No one else has the responsibilities a drummer has, and you can't compare playing drums to any other instrument, it's a different discipline.
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thanks Larry , I am learning a lot from your posts.
 
This is a topic close to my heart and I was going to give an opinion but I don't
think I can add much to what larryace said in response number 4.


On a personal note:
Have you ever noticed girls seem intrigued by men who DON'T hit on them?

For example:
The song, When The World is Running Down, You Make the Most of What's Still Around.
You know, the one by The Police.
Copeland doesn't do a single fill, doesn't hit a single cymbal
and plays the most basic beat known to man.
In short, he gives us the silent treatment, and we are spellbound.

I think the great drummers know how to get inside our heads.
 
Gvdadrummasum said:
I personally have never thought in terms of beats ( or grooves) ...and fills as separate compartments of drumming

it's all just drumming to me....they sort of blend as one in the same in my mind

.if a piece of the music moves you to play patterns around the kit ....then do so

but try not to think of it as a "fill" so much.......think of it as just part of the flow of the tune........something you played when the musics tide would swell, rise or fall
I find that this helps with continuity


I hear a lot of players that sound like beats and fills.....then I hear players that sound like a flowing piece of music
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This is what I was going to say. I totally agree with this. Peace and goodwill.
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
Question: Did it actually serve the music any better than too many fills though?

I'm not trying to be a smartarse here mate. But I do wonder if a concious decision to "play no fill at all during this entire set" is as dogmatic an approach as someone who sets out to overplay and crowd the entire set with drumming clatter?

I've said it before on these forums. I'm in tune with those who say that our role as a drummer is to "serve the music".....but where I vary by definition is that I honestly believe that to "serve it" doesn't necessarily mean always bringing it bread and water, any more than it means always bringing it champagne and caviar.
Just as the music dictates that we not "tread on its toes" and overplay, shouldn't it also dictate that it's ok to set up or introduce (i.e fill) an accompanying passage? Shouldn't the mood of the individual piece dictate here......not the preconceived notions of the drummer determined not to fill just for the sake of it?

As I always say. Less IS indeed more.....unless more is actually required.

What do you guys reckon?
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As I have gotten to be an old man and a more "mature drummer", I do not feel the need to fill the music with my "indulgences" (although I am probably still "busier" than some of you when I play). Having said this, I agree 100% with your theory Pocket! As you suggest, it is almost like some drummers take it as badge of honor to keep it incredible simple. That works, and is appropriate, some times. Other times, it just sounds like the music needs more. The key, as many others have pointed out, is being able to identify which approach is needed! In my opinion, that is the sign of a seasoned, "mature drummer".
 
Groove is way more important than fills.

I can say that authoritatively because I am TERRIBLE at fills. Honestly, I have like 4 and just recycle them.

...but I get gigs because I know a lot of grooves and how they fit within a lot of genres. So I set up the groove, and then at the end of the song section I go for fill number 3 and transition into another groove. Then I might use fill number 1 to switch back to the first groove, or it might slip into the bridge, which might end up being a halftime groove.

Okay, so I kid just a little. But only a little. Groove really is king.
 
SkaaDee said:
For example:
The song, When The World is Running Down, You Make the Most of What's Still Around.
You know, the one by The Police.
Copeland doesn't do a single fill, doesn't hit a single cymbal
and plays the most basic beat known to man.
In short, he gives us the silent treatment, and we are spellbound.

I think the great drummers know how to get inside our heads.
Click to expand...
And that could be Mitch Mitchell on Fire, or any number of JHE tracks. It's horses for courses really
 
no fills, just time keeping.....makes me think, why cant they use a robot?.....after all it serves the purpose..just another thought....I have seen drummers with 10, 0000 tom toms in videos and never do a fill..all they need is a snare and a Bass drum and lot of cymbals.
 
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