Band problems

Volentry

Senior Member
Long post incoming!

Today, my band had a really bad jamming session. We have an acoustic set on tues, and this is our only practice for it. I realised in previous jamming sessions and gigs we seem to have tempo fluctuations during transitions. I practiced to a metronome and found out yes, in songs that have tempos of 140 or above, I tend to have a habit of slowing down during the verses which only has the snare on 2 and 4 and nothing else (no bass drum, no right hand riding on anything).

So I brought a metronome with me today for jamming. There was a song which was on 140bpm, and I would plug it into my earphones and play to it. Our rhythm guitarist was the problem, he could go off just at the first bar. After he managed to get that down, he had a habit of going off time for the verse, which eventually was conquered after some time. And then after a few more tries, we got the whole song down.

After that he said, practicing to that metronome was a waste of time because we had a gig on tues, and minimal problems like this wouldn't be picked up by the audience. He said that when he and the singer practiced, they played fine, and "covered each other's mistakes". I disagreed with his thinking... because I knew his meter isn't that good (the rest of the band never practices to a metronome, I do all the time at home), and well... because I'm the drummer and my responsibility is to keep steady time!

Regarding my own drumming, I feel I have enough chops and technical facility for the amount of time I have been playing and my age. Now I want to focus on getting my meter PERFECT and my fills and all to be tight. But this problem comes up.

So I want to ask the much more experienced guys out there... even the professionals, what do you think I should do? I hear this advice all the time, to listen to the 'big picture' and not hear your own drumming. I play to a metronome at home just fine. However, I think I might be speeding up/slowing down because I'm following the guitarist. Isn't it supposed to be the other way round?
 
I used to have the same problem! Somehow, some guitar players do not understand that they're pushing the tempos during the gigs, especially when we are playing live. In other hand, as a drummer, I forgot that I’m responsible for keeping the speed steady.

As you did, we first talked about it, and we agree that we must jam with a metronome. We tried and didn't work. We gigged with a metronome in my ear and didn’t work either. So I studied a few videos of us, and I realize that I was not keeping the band in time. KEEP THEM in the time was the problem. I finally understood that I have to make them follow my time and not the opposite. So, I made up a method to practice, and now I just spend 20-30 minutes using it. Quickly my timing improved a lot! Now, if someone is rushing, I just keep my time and they slow down. When we gigged last night, my tempo was very, very improved! Even our singer came to me just to say it, later as our bass player say the same. So I just keep my tempo, and I force them to FOLLOW ME without pushing back, or pushing forward. I’m just playing in time even if they are not. :D
 
Hey man, i feel your pain. Is it possible for the song to sound ok just going along with it during your live performance?

I might let it ride for now, then after your gig hash it out with them, going into a gig with bad feelings never works for anyone. After your gig i would bring out the metronome, in my old bands when we would get off time during a song, i would hit a cymbal that i normally wouldnt at the time during the chorus/verse/whatever. If it was normally a hi hat part, id move the time to the ride, if it was a ride, id move it to a hi hat or a bright crash. My guys knew that if i did that, they needed to dial in again. I dont know if itll work for you, given the snare part, but perhaps if they fall off of time you could do a 4 on the floor with the bass drum?
 
Well, I play both live and in a recording situation to a metronome 95% of the time, as do many professional players. I think most contemporary music calls for it. When live, the band I'm playing with will either have the metronome running through their IEMs, or they'll just follow me.


Fox.
 
I want to be clear..............is this a "timing" post or a "band problem" post? The term "I'm in a band" should mean to each of us here: There will be problems. Ha ha!! Just practice your tempos at home with the MNome and then groove with the band. Hold the fort down drummer man!! You will be OK. Guitar players can bitch about tempos IF the drummah is rushing or pushing.....other than that, guitar players, please remember the friggin song.
 
"Waste of time... minimal problems like this wouldn't be picked up by the audience."

Extremely immature attitude.

I was asked to join one of the bands I play with for the exact reason your guys said wouldn't matter - people in the audience noticed timing issues.

Those audience members were specifically 2 producers interested in working with the band who flat out said they wouldn't work with them until they fixed this. Fire old drummer, hire me, in the studio within 2 months, tracking to a click where every "minimal problem" becomes a waste of time and money.

Be adamant about practicing with the metronome at least until the other guys accept that it's the entire bands job to keep time, not just the drummers. It can be a struggle for those who haven't worked with a click before and they'll resist until the "get it", at which point they'll wonder how they ever got by without.

Sounds like you've got your head in the right place and if these guys are cool playing half-assed and aren't into progressing as musicians, maybe it's time for you to move on.

Good luck!
 
You definitely need to encourage your band to stick with metronome practice. How much improvement can you expect from one rehearsal? A specific goal might help. Maybe they'll agree to play each song 20 times with the click over the next few months. One band I was in had a big white board in our rehearsal space with all our songs, tempos, and recording progress listed. You may have to become the "organizer" in the group.

Almost every young musician makes the mistake of slowing down when the music gets quiet, and speeding up when it gets loud, and we must learn that tempo and volume are different ideas. Also, time spent with the metronome now is time saved in the recording studio later. I work occasionally as an audio engineer, and I've seen band take 5 hours, and not get a single song done, because someone couldn't deliver a performance with good timing (it wasn't the drummer).

You mention you're not "riding" any cymbal during certain sections, probably for the sake of the music. But for the sake of your band, you might have to, even if it's tapping the snare with a brush. They need to experience playing with solid time, and so you must "state the time" confidently. It is difficult to just plow through a musician who is rushing or dragging, but it's necessary. Once everyone can keep their own time sufficiently, you won't have to do so much babysitting.

As far as "covering each other's mistakes" is concerned, you need to be careful here. Of course that is a terrible justification for poor playing, but try to encourage him. Lie if you must, and tell him he's a smart guy, a good musician, a friend, and that he'll make progress quickly. And then be patient and encouraging.

When someone in your band makes a timing mistake, the average listener may not be able to tell what exactly has gone wrong, but they will know that something is "off". A regular Joe has listened to lots and lots of music, and almost ALL of it has metronomic timing. So why wouldn't people notice poor timing in a concert? Are they too distracted by your good looks?

One last thing: It's common practice in recording studios to speed up the choruses by 1 or 2 bpms, just to give those parts added energy. You might try this if you get a programmable metronome.
 
I finally understood that I have to make them follow my time and not the opposite.
I have this problem.... If someone starts draging etc... my subconscious starts playing that tempo instead. So what "method" did you use? :p
 
I would wait to after the gig to work on this. But I think the audience can tell alittle more than musicians think. Esp if there is other musicians in the crowd. I hear alot of musicians say "the audience wont be able to tell". But if you notice it, chances are others will as well. And you dont have to be a muscian to tell something is not quit right.
 
I played with a sit -in bass player once who rushed so bad He actually lapped me...the guitar players followed him and so I dropped the kick out completely and played snare and hats the rest of the song.. Ugh! You are not alone in your frustration,sir.
 
I still working it but It is very easy, but very powerful. Once I get it ready I will post it on youtube. But it helps a lot on most of our drumming needs, timing, fills, double bass drums playing, etc. And it is very fun. But for sure I will share it! but not yet :p

I have this problem.... If someone starts draging etc... my subconscious starts playing that tempo instead. So what "method" did you use? :p
 
I have this problem.... If someone starts draging etc... my subconscious starts playing that tempo instead. So what "method" did you use? :p

Resolve to play every rehearsal, every gig, with a click for a year, and record yourself once a month. That ought to do it.

Performing in a band that gigs regularly with a click helped me so much. And there weren't the usual arguments about who's dragging or rushing, because I'm playing with the click first, and with the band second. I wish I would have gotten that experience sooner. Most young drummers probably get that sort of "internal clock" training while in drum corps or marching band.

I've heard some educators talk about "owning" the time, and how playing along to a metronome is "following", whereas a drummer ought to "lead" when he is not playing with the click. I see the logic here, but when you play with a band AND with a click, you must communicate that pulse to everyone else. IMHO, with enough click experience, "owning" the time (in non-click situations) will come quite naturally, if you can turn off your logical brain and just let the training kick in.
 
Your band has: drums, vocals and guitar any bass player involved? How's his/her timing? If you can work on that timing foundation with the bass player; that is very hard to argue against. Not that it's a "devide and conquer" mentality. It has been my experience working in a new band that once the bass player and I establised the meter everyone else just was mature enough to understand and follow. Another thing you can do is record your rehearsals so everyone can hear where they need to make corrections. That's where the rubber really meets the road, you can't hide or fudge around a recording, those mics just don't lie.
 
I played with a sit -in bass player once who rushed so bad He actually lapped me...the guitar players followed him and so I dropped the kick out completely and played snare and hats the rest of the song.. Ugh! You are not alone in your frustration,sir.

Dear God it is unbelievable to think that there is a rhythmist out there who can be that bad.

I used to be guilty of speeding up progressively but I worked at this and keeping time is very important. I don't think it is essential to play to a metronome if your timing is good but the others really need to realise the importance of keeping good time. It is just common sense, musicians shouldn't want their music to fluctuate 'needlessly' it's ridiculous and anyone who says this isn't a problem is just plain ignorant.

There is nothing wrong with tempo changes if they are controlled and in context but if it is down to bad timing it is indeed an issue that needs to be resolved.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies.

I might let it ride for now, then after your gig hash it out with them, going into a gig with bad feelings never works for anyone. After your gig i would bring out the metronome, in my old bands when we would get off time during a song, i would hit a cymbal that i normally wouldnt at the time during the chorus/verse/whatever. If it was normally a hi hat part, id move the time to the ride, if it was a ride, id move it to a hi hat or a bright crash. My guys knew that if i did that, they needed to dial in again. I dont know if itll work for you, given the snare part, but perhaps if they fall off of time you could do a 4 on the floor with the bass drum?
It may be abit too complex for them, they may not like the idea. I think it would be better for them to train themselves to know themselves when they are out of time, and not rely on me to tell them.

Well, I play both live and in a recording situation to a metronome 95% of the time, as do many professional players. I think most contemporary music calls for it. When live, the band I'm playing with will either have the metronome running through their IEMs, or they'll just follow me.
Which is what I told him. He said it was more important for the band to go through the song first as we only had one practice, so timing issues wasn't as important. The gigs we play in don't have that equipment such as IEMs and stuff yet, I'm not sure how those kind of things work as well.

@brentcn: Thanks for the very helpful advice. I will apply those and tell him about the 'audience able to know something is off' part.

Performing in a band that gigs regularly with a click helped me so much. And there weren't the usual arguments about who's dragging or rushing, because I'm playing with the click first, and with the band second. I wish I would have gotten that experience sooner. Most young drummers probably get that sort of "internal clock" training while in drum corps or marching band.

I've heard some educators talk about "owning" the time, and how playing along to a metronome is "following", whereas a drummer ought to "lead" when he is not playing with the click. I see the logic here, but when you play with a band AND with a click, you must communicate that pulse to everyone else. IMHO, with enough click experience, "owning" the time (in non-click situations) will come quite naturally, if you can turn off your logical brain and just let the training kick in.
I kind of understand what you mean by 'owning' the time. I used to do that last time with my previous band, but I guess I forgot to do it with this one. Thanks for the heads up.

I have a question though... if you are listening to the click and following it so that you don't go off, doesn't that mean you can't be listening to the band for rushing/dragging? I didn't experience this problem yet, but I was pondering about it and this possible issue came up in my mind.

Your band has: drums, vocals and guitar any bass player involved? How's his/her timing? If you can work on that timing foundation with the bass player; that is very hard to argue against. Not that it's a "devide and conquer" mentality. It has been my experience working in a new band that once the bass player and I establised the meter everyone else just was mature enough to understand and follow. Another thing you can do is record your rehearsals so everyone can hear where they need to make corrections. That's where the rubber really meets the road, you can't hide or fudge around a recording, those mics just don't lie.
Yes we have a bass player. Thanks for this tip, I'll apply that as well!
 
There's absolutely no shame in pulling out a metronome to make sure that songs where the band or one person in it stay in time, even at gigs. I used a metronome for four or five of our faster songs at the last gig just to make sure I stayed on time. In fact, it's gotten to be a sort of game/running joke between me and the bandleader, because with my in-ear headphones on, he has no idea whether I'm running a click or not. He'll turn to me and say, "Wow, that was tight! You must have had the click on..." whereupon I say, "Nope, that was all me this time."
 
Long post incoming!

Today, my band had a really bad jamming session. We have an acoustic set on tues, and this is our only practice for it. I realised in previous jamming sessions and gigs we seem to have tempo fluctuations during transitions. I practiced to a metronome and found out yes, in songs that have tempos of 140 or above, I tend to have a habit of slowing down during the verses which only has the snare on 2 and 4 and nothing else (no bass drum, no right hand riding on anything).

So I brought a metronome with me today for jamming. There was a song which was on 140bpm, and I would plug it into my earphones and play to it. Our rhythm guitarist was the problem, he could go off just at the first bar. After he managed to get that down, he had a habit of going off time for the verse, which eventually was conquered after some time. And then after a few more tries, we got the whole song down.

After that he said, practicing to that metronome was a waste of time because we had a gig on tues, and minimal problems like this wouldn't be picked up by the audience. He said that when he and the singer practiced, they played fine, and "covered each other's mistakes". I disagreed with his thinking... because I knew his meter isn't that good (the rest of the band never practices to a metronome, I do all the time at home), and well... because I'm the drummer and my responsibility is to keep steady time!

Regarding my own drumming, I feel I have enough chops and technical facility for the amount of time I have been playing and my age. Now I want to focus on getting my meter PERFECT and my fills and all to be tight. But this problem comes up.

So I want to ask the much more experienced guys out there... even the professionals, what do you think I should do? I hear this advice all the time, to listen to the 'big picture' and not hear your own drumming. I play to a metronome at home just fine. However, I think I might be speeding up/slowing down because I'm following the guitarist. Isn't it supposed to be the other way round?

2 suggestions:

1) Do what the pros in every field do (music, sports, theater, etc...). Record your performance with a video camera and set aside a time for the whole band to watch later. Make a rule that every person in the band should write down one thing to sustain (something that worked right) and one thing to improve on for each song. Even better, have them come up with both a sustain and improve for both themselves and for the band for each song. Do this at least one performance every month. The guitar player who sees practicing with a metronome as a waste of time will hopefully see that he may be causing a problem that the audience will notice. The tape doesn't lie

2) You and the bass player need to keep everyone in time, but you don't have to be the "metronome nazi". Guitar players hate that. Yes, it is the rhythm section's job to keep time, but the audience isn't going to know that the guitar player started the song 10 BPM too fast. They will notice if the rhythm section isn't working together to subtly rein that guitar player in once the whole band comes in. Subtlety is the key. If the band slows down or speeds up, they need to do it together or you get a train wreck. Communication with the bass player is crucial.

You mention that you want to be perfect and tight with your fills, but the important thing is that the band is tight overall and that can only come by critiquing themselves and by communication. No one wants to see 4 guys who all happen to be playing by themselves on the same stage and fighting each other to win the "tempo war" or the "volume war" or any of the other battles that musicians invent, they want to listen to a band of 4 people working together to perform a good song.
 
I agree with Brad's solid advice above.

I would also add that a couple days before the gig is not the time to bring in metronome and rehearse differently. Sqaure all that up after the gig.
 
I kind of understand what you mean by 'owning' the time. I used to do that last time with my previous band, but I guess I forgot to do it with this one. Thanks for the heads up.

I have a question though... if you are listening to the click and following it so that you don't go off, doesn't that mean you can't be listening to the band for rushing/dragging? I didn't experience this problem yet, but I was pondering about it and this possible issue came up in my mind.

As you gain experience with the click, and familiarity with the song, you will not have to pay so much direct attention to the click, and you will be able to listen to other players more. As your sense of timing improves over the years, you will become able to identify times when a particular person is late or early. It's important you think of your "internal clock" as something that needs to be refined. Long term experience with a metronome in a variety of situations (and subdivisions) is the key.

Yes, it is the rhythm section's job to keep time, but the audience isn't going to know that the guitar player started the song 10 BPM too fast.

The audience may not be able to tell which player started fast, but they will likely know something sounds weird as the group adjusts, no matter how subtle. And what if a producer or promoter is in the audience? You'd probably want to have your &$^$ together in such a case. Besides, wouldn't you rather be in a band that doesn't make these mistakes, that the only things people notice are how easy you make it look and how good your songs are? Bring your metronome, get the tempo before the song, and count your guitar player in if you must. A tempo adjustment may be necessary if all else fails, but do your best to make plans and habits that prevent such things.

The tape doesn't lie

Actually it can! It's often the case that a student will play a song, and they will swear it's 100% correct, when it is obvious that notes or rhythms are out of place, and improper chords and harmonies are used. By and large, musicians believe themselves to be "correct", until they are shown a better version. Sometimes they will prefer their own version, and state that the accurate version is wrong. If the accurate version is beyond their facility, often they will justify themselves, and say "that's the way I play it." We perceive music according to our abilities and experience, and that is why experience and education are so important.

At some point, record yourselves with a click, and overdub each instrument one at a time. Then you can zoom in on the waveforms, and the rushing and dragging (or general sloppiness) will be in plain sight. The visual display of notes in time and out of time may help to bridge the gap between what your guitarist "hears" and what is actually happening. But until the guitarist refines his own timing, he will likely believe that everything is fine, and that the drummer is "splitting hairs".
 
I know what to do now. He has agreed to play with a metronome for all jamming sessions from now on, after much explanation.

I watched our performance (it was my 3rd time ever playing in front of people), and we played to no click. I noticed my time was ok in slower songs, no obvious slowing down or anything of the sort. However for faster songs that were at the 140 or 150 range I seem to slow down about 6bpm at the 1st verse, and remain at that tempo, only fluctuating about 1 or 2bpm.

So I have a question... how many bpm of fluctuation (if that makes any sense) is acceptable without a metronome?
 
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