Open handed technique

It may well be that the argument here is really a non-starter. I see two paths:

1. A traditional kit layout played with traditional grip in a traditional manner.

2. A symmetrical kit layout played with matched grip open handed.

It may well be that this argument is akin to bassists arguing about upright versus fretted electric. I think we can all agree that music changes and evolves. I don't think it's surprising that technique and technology evolve along with the music. Let me put it this way: It really wouldn't be the same if Brubeck's Time Out album didn't have Eugene Wright on upright but featured a different bassist playing a Fender. By the same token, could you imagine Eugene doing screamo?

So those two scenarios represent two ends of the spectrum for a basic drum kit as I see it. Depending on need and personal taste, we can also find things in the middle (e.g., think fretless electric bass for a fusion player).
 
The actual differences between traditional and "open-handed" technique that I have experienced are far different than those purported in discussions like this.

First, I play a traditional set-up with an old-fashioned hi-hat stand on the left. When I play the hi-hat with my right and the snare with my left, I am playing open-handed. If you put your hi-hat stand in the correct place, you can too. From this position, my left hand can actually still play both the rack tom and the floor tom. It's just a bit tricky to do anything too elaborate between them.

When I play the hi-hat with my left hand, the biggest difference I notice is as subtle as it is profound. With my right hand now on the snare drum, the groove shifts focus to the interplay between the bass drum and the snare drum. I may be playing exactly the same notes, but everything just feels different. In essence, I haven't switched which hand is leading from right to left. I've actually just swapped my leading hand from hi-hat to snare drum.

The biggest beneficiary of practicing open-handed is not my left hand. It's my feet. Practicing with the hands prevents me from letting my feet lazily follow one of my hands. Instead, each bass drum or hi-hat pedal note must be placed independently at the right time. I was delighted with myself when practicing something open-handed and my bass drum kept going right in time when my hands completely fell apart. Not surprisingly, when I play with hands in traditional roles, everything is tighter than before I tried with hands reversed.

Playing fills from or to each position is often overlooked in these discussions. In general, I find that I am more mobile from the traditional position. The root of this is that it's easier to reach the floor tom with my right hand. From an open-handed position, certain fills require moving the left hand to the snare so that the right hand can go to the floor tom. From a traditional position, only the right hand would move. I can, however, imagine that some licks would be easier by giving the right-hand a head start from the open-handed position. On the other hand, I often find myself settling into an open-handed groove coming out of certain fills. It's just where my hands were.

Overall, I think every drummer should practice playing the hi-hat with the left-hand. You should be at least fluent enough for the drumming equivalent of "¿Dónde está el baño?" or "Más cervasas, por favor." Most of the time, it doesn't really matter but there are certain times that it's really useful. It's not that much extra effort to practice nor is the effort completely wasted; it significantly helps with overall rhythmic sense and independence. You will hardly ever see me play the hi-hat with my right hand, but I practice almost everything both ways.
 
When I play the hi-hat with my left hand, the biggest difference I notice is as subtle as it is profound. With my right hand now on the snare drum, the groove shifts focus to the interplay between the bass drum and the snare drum. I may be playing exactly the same notes, but everything just feels different. In essence, I haven't switched which hand is leading from right to left. I've actually just swapped my leading hand from hi-hat to snare drum.
Gah! Finally! Finally, someone else has hit on this too - I was beginning to think I was going crazy!

It has nothing to do with some exotic or useless exercise, and is not even remotely analogous to learning left-handed guitar. It's just the change in the way the groove feels.

My left hand riding can't get nearly as lazy or relaxed as my right cos it ain't nearly as practiced in that role, so the 8ths tighten right up. The 2 & 4 backbeats are now handled by the hand "normally" on the leading edge of the flam, instead of the one behind it. Sure, unison hits are a great thing to practice, but it's really easy to flam between ride and backbeat without being aware of it. And as you pointed out, the bass drum is now tracking the left hand, so it's more squared up. Everything feels different this way, and a lot of the time it just feels better cos there's no laziness happening.

I'm still not preaching a full switch-over and I play crossed over 95% of the time, but it really is a beneficial thing to practice, at least for me - and I suspect others as well.
 
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For those who are in favor of open handed playing, I wonder what your feelings are about remote hi-hats. The thing that I keep see in this (and other) threads is the price. If remote stands were the same price as traditional hi-hat stands, would your opinion be different?

Another argument that I keep seeing is that people play crossed out of tradition - so open handed is an evolution of drumming. But why would we allow or playing to evolve to fit the traditional setup? Why not allow the setup itself to evolve with the use of remote hi-hats? And yes, they are expensive but people spend similar amounts on top of the line double bass drum pedals and ride cymbals.

Also (along with left hand lead) Gary Chester did recommend using an x-hat, a stationary hi-hat stand placed on the right. I wonder if he would have used a remote hi-hat if they were available. Maybe they were available at the time, but the action most likely was not as smooth as today.

Just some food for thought.

Jeff
I don't use remote hats because there not necessary and they feel different. Learning to control your limbs you can lead with your left hand and lead your right foot at the same time pretty easily. If they were cheaper I still wouldn't get one
 
Gah! Finally! Finally, someone else has hit on this too - I was beginning to think I was going crazy!

It has nothing to do with some exotic or useless exercise, and is not even remotely analogous to learning left-handed guitar. It's just the change in the way the groove feels

It shouldn't feel any different , and it definitely shouldn't be reversed notes, because that's a reversed beat... If your not actually leading with your left correctly I wouldn't say you're playing left lead, sounds more right hand lead just in a different position. And no it's not learning how to play a left handed guitar. I'm pretty sure we established that is completely different.
 
It shouldn't feel any different , and it definitely shouldn't be reversed notes, because that's a reversed beat... If your not actually leading with your left correctly I wouldn't say you're playing left lead, sounds more right hand lead just in a different position. And no it's not learning how to play a left handed guitar. I'm pretty sure we established that is completely different.
Problem here is that you're talking shoulds and shouldn'ts when it's more a matter of what is. The feel is different when I switch up. Also, I never said I was leading with my left; I'm riding with my left, and even though it's taken control of the pulse by virtue of its role, I'm not convinced that that makes it left hand lead, since I still lead with my right when playing fills, but I think we're getting into semantics with that at some point.

Lastly, I don't know who the "we" is in your last sentence. Would that be you?

...It would actually be self-sabotaging to take up some of those things, because working on them takes time away from all of the important, totally mundane stuff you have to be able to do really well in order to be any kind of musician.
How is it that you're keeper of the definition for what a musician of any worth is? That just blows my mind.
There's also plenty of more stuff than that which you'll be able to do if you just practice the one thing a whole lot more. The real limiter on most people's playing is not "can't reach enough stuff to hit", it's "doesn't practice enough", and "practices the wrong stuff."
I don't get that, man. Seriously. Okay, I'll bite - what if what the one thing you're doing is just that: one thing. What if, say, there was another thing? The "real limiter" on most people's playing, IME, is lack of imagination and follow-through.
It's only free to roam the kit if someone spends a lot of time learning to play really well in that orientation. This extra freedom people are advertising is strictly hypothetical until they've done that.
Really well? How about just good enough to say what you feel like saying? Imagine one day you think of a little open-handed thing to do that's kinda nifty and sounds cool. Next day, you have a brainwave on how you might add a little something to the first thing. Day after that another one, and so on until eventually it might appear to someone else as if you'd mastered this whole thing, when in reality they're only glimpsing a snapshot in time of you on your journey of discovering new ways to make this idea even more useful and interesting.

There's nothing hypothetical about how I've been using it, and nothing hypothetical about what others have done with it, including Steve Smith on a mega-selling pop smash hit, which itself wasn't some trivial little drum trick - it was integral to the sound of that song.
But what I do when I need(?) to be roaming the kit, is move my right hand to the ride cymbal. I guess conceivably there could be an occasion when I really need to play a lot of tom toms while also playing specifically the hihat, and not the cymbal, but no way am I ever spending any amount of practice time preparing for that eventuality-- there's too much other stuff to learn, and polish.
Ride cymbal? Conceivably maybe perhaps an off-chance occasion where hats might possibly be the more appropriate choice? That's just lazy, man. What do you think that Steve Smith part would have sounded like had he opted for the easy RH 8th note ride pattern on the ride cymbal instead? A lot less interesting or compelling if you ask me (stale, in fact), though I suppose you could make the case that he was being unprofessional by being inappropriately interesting and siphoning glory from the singing talent. Perhaps that's why they fired him! Cool part either way.
That's what I don't get. All of the complaints re: normal playing and the claimed advantages re: OH playing can be remedied/acheived with zero additional hours of practice by just never playing the hihat with your RH. If you do that, and get a remote hihat, the rationale for OH playing evaporates.
What I don't get is someone who claims to be this professional (and a teacher) taking such a narrow view of what drumming should be to everyone else by not only encouraging lazy short cuts that do nothing but defend a status-quo on the art form, but also by discouraging any path that seeks to push its boundaries.

Todd, I know this isn't the first time we've tangled, but your view on what others should or shouldn't be wasting their time on just gets my hackles up. I wish I understood what your angle is cos I'm really curious. Do you like drumming?
 
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I chose to learn open handed to improve my left hand. I have no idea to what Todd refers.

Jim is more correct IMO. As is Mike. This argument is a non starter. There's no such thing as the Drumming Police and certainly no law. We do what we want. Anyone saying should or shouldn't can go get a hobby as far as I am concerned. This is a creative field and it is for the artist, and the artist alone, to create art as he or she wishes.

What is going on here, Fundamentalist Drumming???

Too funny. :)
 
It shouldn't feel any different , and it definitely shouldn't be reversed notes, because that's a reversed beat... If your not actually leading with your left correctly I wouldn't say you're playing left lead, sounds more right hand lead just in a different position. And no it's not learning how to play a left handed guitar. I'm pretty sure we established that is completely different.

It does feel different, though. That's a critical element that I think dovetails well with a more 'composed' or mechanical approach to playing- I still play jazz (and enjoy occasional jamming) with a traditional 4-piece because I have a wealth of groove experience with a typical limb assignment that just isn't as present when my limbs are out of their 'comfort zone'. It absolutely feels different and I think they're two tools for two different purposes, much like matched v. traditional grip (which I don't play, full disclosure).

Mike, I agree.
 
Problem here is that you're talking shoulds and shouldn'ts when it's more a matter of what is. The feel is different when I switch up. Also, I never said I was leading with my left; I'm riding with my left, and even though it's taken control of the pulse by virtue of its role, I'm not convinced that that makes it left hand lead, since I still lead with my right when playing fills, but I think we're getting into semantics with that at some point.

Lastly, I don't know who the "we" is in your last sentence. Would that be you?

How is it that you're keeper of the definition for what a musician of any worth is? That just blows my mind.
I don't get that, man. Seriously. Okay, I'll bite - what if what the one thing you're doing is just that: one thing. What if, say, there was another thing? The "real limiter" on most people's playing, IME, is lack of imagination and follow-through.
Really well? How about just good enough to say what you feel like saying? Imagine one day you think of a little open-handed thing to do that's kinda nifty and sounds cool. Next day, you have a brainwave on how you might add a little something to the first thing. Day after that another one, and so on until eventually it might appear to someone else as if you'd mastered this whole thing, when in reality they're only glimpsing a snapshot in time of you on your journey of discovering new ways to make this idea even more useful and interesting.

There's nothing hypothetical about how I've been using it, and nothing hypothetical about what others have done with it, including Steve Smith on a mega-selling pop smash hit, which itself wasn't some trivial little drum trick - it was integral to the sound of that song.
Ride cymbal? Conceivably maybe perhaps an off-chance occasion where hats might possibly be the more appropriate choice? That's just lazy, man. What do you think that Steve Smith part would have sounded like had he opted for the easy RH 8th note ride pattern on the ride cymbal instead? A lot less interesting or compelling if you ask me (stale, in fact), though I suppose you could make the case that he was being unprofessional by being inappropriately interesting and siphoning glory from the singing talent. Perhaps that's why they fired him! Cool part either way.
What I don't get is someone who claims to be this professional (and a teacher) taking such a narrow view of what drumming should be to everyone else by not only encouraging lazy short cuts that do nothing but defend a status-quo on the art form, but also by discouraging any path that seeks to push its boundaries.

Todd, I know this isn't the first time we've tangled, but your view on what others should or shouldn't be wasting their time on just gets my hackles up. I wish I understood what your angle is cos I'm really curious. Do you like drumming?

Bro, maybe lighten up a little bit?

What Todd is basically saying ( and I was to a lesser degree) is that mere technical issues of which this is one) are NOT nearly as important as the deeper musical issues of keeping time, making the music feel good etc. Your first job is to groove. To quote Bob Moses: "Everybody is creative but not everybody grooves"

It is actually similar to Wynton Marsalis' view on fusion music. I'm not going to get into that here but you can check it our yourself if you are so inclined. Especially the liner notes from "Standard Time".

And yes I love love love the drums.

As far as lefty coordination, I have played through both New Breed and Extreme Interdependence and I can play pretty much everything I can lefty as I can righty yet I choose to have a closed hat on my right and a normal one on my left. If I ever need to play "Don't Stop Believing" I will play my hi hat with my left. Big Deal.

Like I said earlier, it's cool if you want to do it but please stop acting as if you are part of the "New drumming revolution" or something. It's not nearly a big a deal in the big picture of making music as this conversation tries to show.
 
I am astounded by this thread. On one hand we have people who say "I think I'll try something different!". And on the other are people who say "It is not about being different. We all must conform."

Free thinkers vs conservatives.

The old ways are always replaced. Ask Zeus and Apollo.

If you, dear reader wish to try open handed then do so. If you do not, then don't.

Artists telling other artists how to make art???

Be careful Simon, they'll burn you at the stake if given the chance.
 
Bro, maybe lighten up a little bit?

What Todd is basically saying ( and I was to a lesser degree) is that mere technical issues of which this is one) are NOT nearly as important as the deeper musical issues of keeping time, making the music feel good etc. Your first job is to groove. To quote Bob Moses: "Everybody is creative but not everybody grooves"
...
Like I said earlier, it's cool if you want to do it but please stop acting as if you are part of the "New drumming revolution" or something. It's not nearly a big a deal in the big picture of making music as this conversation tries to show.

He's matching the tone of the original post. I would think most med-to-high level players can manage to make the music feel good regardless of setup, despite that ...weird? quote.

I don't get any of that sensationalism. All I am speaking to, and can speak to, is that it has personally made me a better drummer and that I think some people might like it if they tried.
 
I am astounded by this thread. On one hand we have people who say "I think I'll try something different!". And on the other are people who say "It is not about being different. We all must conform."

Free thinkers vs conservatives.

The old ways are always replaced. Ask Zeus and Apollo.

If you, dear reader wish to try open handed then do so. If you do not, then don't.

Artists telling other artists how to make art???

Be careful Simon, they'll burn you at the stake if given the chance.

Ok, OK maybe I did play the devil's advocate role to the extreme but my simple motive was to try to point out that technical issues are not necessarily key to the musical ones. It is possible to become so mired in the technical explorations of our instrument that we lose sight of the actual goal of making music. I did not feel as if I told anyone about how to make art. Technical considerations are not artistic ones.

I wish you all the best.
 
Jeff you're awesome mate. Please don't worry about any of this.

When I posted I was laughing. I had just spent an hour with a serious teenager who played me metal music so based in theater it was funny. :)

All of us hit things. Some of us do so for a living. I used to fight full contact for money. Hitting things then was quite different. ;)

None of us is trying to stop violence in Gaza. We are just dummers. We can be serious about our art, but at the end of the day it is just drumming.

This is about drumming. Rhythm. How we generate that rhythm is inconsequential. Our hearts beat without any deference to stickings.

Play open handed or not. What does it matter? Would one ask a skateboard if it prefered a goofy footer?
 
This thread is very interesting to me. I am currently trying a different way of setting up and playing my drums. Hi hat at 12o'clock and small tom to the left of my hi hat. I don't know if it will work for me.

I play traditional grip. I wish I had been taught match grip from day one. However I learned how to play around 1953 and in those days matched grip was used only on the Timpani.

My grandson is 3 years old and he wants a drum set. I wonder, how should I set up his new drum set? There are so many options !!

.
 
I've noticed that once I started getting into blast beats and more complex beats, open handed playing is starting to sneak in to my playing. I find that the "flam tap" type of blast where you alternate from LR L to LR R was my door way into what open handed drumming has to offer. I've always had this little voice in my head that says "you should practice open handed", but for the most part I ignored it. So now it's catching up with me and I use it a lot like my slide technique in an "as needed" type role. I must admit though that having X hats on my right eliminates 95% of the need for open handed drumming, for the music I play.

If you want a good comparison with OH versus Cross, think about swapping piano parts with your hands left playing right handed parts, right playing left handed parts.
 
This thread is very interesting to me. I am currently trying a different way of setting up and playing my drums. Hi hat at 12o'clock and small tom to the left of my hi hat. I don't know if it will work for me.

I play traditional grip. I wish I had been taught match grip from day one. However I learned how to play around 1953 and in those days matched grip was used only on the Timpani.

My grandson is 3 years old and he wants a drum set. I wonder, how should I set up his new drum set? There are so many options !!

.

Ambidextrous would be a really good way to start someone off at a young age, with no bias to playing cross or open.
 
I am astounded by this thread. On one hand we have people who say "I think I'll try something different!". And on the other are people who say "It is not about being different. We all must conform."

Free thinkers vs conservatives.

The old ways are always replaced. Ask Zeus and Apollo.

If you, dear reader wish to try open handed then do so. If you do not, then don't.

Artists telling other artists how to make art???

Be careful Simon, they'll burn you at the stake if given the chance.

First time I've ever been accused of being conservative about anything. For someone who's kidding around, as you say, you're piling it on awfully thick. I guess actually including cons in a thread about the pros and cons of a thing is now fascism.

Todd, I know this isn't the first time we've tangled, but your view on what others should or shouldn't be wasting their time on just gets my hackles up. I wish I understood what your angle is cos I'm really curious. Do you like drumming?

I'm not tangling with anyone, I'm contributing to a discussion on a thing the OP wanted to discuss. I had some thoughts/comments about what some other people said, and you put the least charitable, most domineering possible interpretation on them. I'm not getting in an off-topic fight over personality shit. Not interested.

As people have probably guessed, I have some serious reservations about the, uh, efficacy of the open-handed thing, and have summarized my thoughts about it here, so I don't have to keep having the same arguments every time this subject comes up. I am not demanding that you read it, agree with it, or do what it says.
 
As people have probably guessed, I have some serious reservations about the, uh, efficacy of the open-handed thing, and have summarized my thoughts about it here, so I don't have to keep having the same arguments every time this subject comes up. I am not demanding that you read it, agree with it, or do what it says.

Very good read, I totally agree. X hats or aux hats elimnates the need for open handed drumming, plus they're a nice accent to add to your kit.
 
First time I've ever been accused of being conservative about anything. For someone who's kidding around, as you say, you're piling it on awfully thick. I guess actually including cons in a thread about the pros and cons of a thing is now fascism.

Haaah!! Great response.

That did get me thinking though, as for my social and political views I couldn't really ever be accused of being a conservative. However with my gear and musical styles I tend to lean towards older and more traditional. I play Traditional grip, learned of my own volition. My bass drums are all 14" deep and I love old Jazz music.

Nice strawman there Wy but I do not see the correlation.
 
Well I had just spent an hour watching guys wearing masks play incredibly theatrical music. :)

Hard to take anything seriously after that! :)

But "pyling it on thick" was the idea. I think it is just time to put this stuff into perspective.

Not everybody is going to be the next Tony or Max. Certainly not me. I am lucky if I can get out the front door without falling over. But yesterday I finally pulled off an advanced syncopated funk groove using left hand lead. Sure playing it right handed is a walk in the park. But to now do it comfortably using my left is a bit of a personal triumph.

My day today will consist of teaching young kids, some teenagers and a few adults. All the younger kids play open handed naturally. I am not going to say Don't do that.

By the way, young Jamie2c asked me a serious technique question in a PM yesterday. I am bookee for ten hours today and wont have time to answer. I am gonna post it for him in the technique section. I trust all you wonderful fellow drummers will help him out.

Thanks guys. Love ya!
 
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