theoritical thought

Rajhoul

Junior Member
Thought here.

The most likely outcome of initiating or performing different variably prefrenced based compositions, where its construction is determined by what is perceivably suitable in a manner of occurring simultaneously, is a sense of cacophony or overly abundant dissonance.

What term or type of term would be given to the concept of rhythms(poly), meters(odd-time and displaced), melodies, harmonies, pitch, intonation, octaves, tones, scales, chords and lyrical content that could occur simultaneous and also though intertwined, separate enough for any listener to follow along with or adequately identify ?

I have been dwindling in to the idea of what I could only describe as a theoretical event in which one could experience layers upon layers of auditory, visual or other stimuli that could be experienced in a 50/50 ratio of being simultaneously perceived and still experience any different individual layer in a way where one could understand how different stimuli can co-exist and reveal how their still separate.

It would be like if you could taste different foods, experience the simultaneous taste of different foods as something completely different and new and still have the sensation of each individual food as if it were never mixed with anything else.
 
At first I thought this was a very sarcastic post, mocking the wordy language style of philosophers and arrogant linguists...as I've done that myself...

However, I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and it's really interesting. I have to ask what scale (how many "layers") are you talking about here? Have you thought up any examples which might work?

I think you'll have to dumb the english down a bit to get more forum members on board with the concept...this interesting concept...
 
What term or type of term would be given to the concept of rhythms(poly), meters(odd-time and displaced), melodies, harmonies, pitch, intonation, octaves, tones, scales, chords and lyrical content that could occur simultaneous and also though intertwined, separate enough for any listener to follow along with or adequately identify ?

Umm, yeah. The name for that would be music.
 
This is less a musical question that one of human learning and experience. That said, I don't think what you are suggesting is something that people don't already do, and the nature of the question is subjective. Humans hear different levels/layers of music making, but not everyone can perceive and appreciate multiple levels at one time. Individuals gravitate towards musical qualities that appeal to them, and search them out when experiencing new selections. Whether or not they appreciate them in combinations/layers also depends on their level of understanding and the value they place on them, which is why I believe these considerations are subjective.

That said, I once heard Yusef Lateef describe the term autophysiopsychic music, which may be my best suggestion.
 
Umm, yeah. The name for that would be music.

Go bigger. Hear every individual player in a orchestra as if they were alone, yet still be able to hear every last player together as one.

It seems to go above and beyond what the human brain is capable of, but it's interesting nonetheless.

(am I on the right track here Rajhoul?)
 
Yes

the concept is so encompassing that it probably can't be given a tangible real-world application, at least not in this world.

A format where the variations of existence are experienced simultaneously and separately could reveal the nature among ourselves of why we choose what we choose and reject what we reject.
 
Yes

the concept is so encompassing that it probably can't be given a tangible real-world application, at least not in this world.

Yes it can - music.

Try and simplify your writing style - it's a bit of a headache trying to plough through your posts!
 
You would be talking about Polly-listening! (sorry, had to get that out of my system)

The layers go on forever. It operates serially as well as in parallel, ie. the meaning of a note is different taken on its own to the way it's perceived as part of a melody. Also, apart from the notes themselves you have the relationships between them - and that changes in parallel at any given moment (band chords), not to mention the (serial) relationship between each of those relationships in time. However, most of musical perception is dealt with by our subconscious mind and emotions. By "black boxing" musical perception, ironically, we better grasp meaning. That is, a note by itself may mean diddly squat but in context it can be deeply moving.

It's an odd thing trying to grasp things consciously that are normally handled by our subconscious. When I was 11 years old I found it strange that in moments of shock my mind seemed to black out. I wanted to better understand what I felt at those moments and was determined to grasp them.

Soon afterwards I was on a family holiday and there were two boats moored at an island with a narrow walkway linking them. I was deep in thought while walking from one boat to another, missed the bridge, and walked straight off the side of the boat, falling about 10 feet into the water. One moment I was walking in the sun, the next I was deep underwater.

As I struggled up for air I tried to grasp the moment ... what I thought, what I felt. The secret to my hidden perceptions. Later on Dad told me what I said as I broke the surface of the water ...

"I DON'T BELIEVE IT!"

... we humans can only consciously absorb so much at any given moment :) So we leave all the deeper perceptions to our subconscious.

Of course, if I made a habit of accidentally falling into deep water I would get better at picking up the layers of my perception. Same with music. Repeated listening reveals new aspects, depending on how deep we wish to dig.

Also, an experienced ear will pick up more because it recognises standard patterns. Some (like the punks in the late 70s) might see that as jadedness - non experiential understanding and imperviousness to emotional "manipulation", always seeking an ever more sophisticated musical "high". Same with the experience of any art form - or eating, socialising, sex, drugs, sport etc.

Rajhoul, correct me if I'm wrong, but it strikes me that you are looking to experience something obtained with repetition in a single sitting. My feeling is that, in doing so, you may gain understanding of form but miss the overarching content. There's nothing wrong with understanding the mechanics of things, especially when developing skills, but in the end ideally the mechanics give way to feeling.

Sorry. Long post.
 
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the nature of the question is subjective. Humans hear different levels/layers of music making, but not everyone can perceive and appreciate multiple levels at one time.
Exactly. There's no way to do it, and that goes for anything we're doing--whether artworks or not, even--so that everyone will have the same responses, the same (kinds of) interpretations. Humans are not actually identical to each other.

Also, the problem with the first post wasn't that the vocabulary or ideas needed to be "dumbed down". Rather it needed to be fixed syntactically--that is, grammatically within sentences and the structural/logical connection between sentences. Well, that and some of the ideas are dubious, but it's easier to deal with that if it makes sense syntactically.
 
I'm all into philosophy and its many subdivisions of thought but I must agree the term is already defined ... Music.

Deep thinking and a desire to rediscover or uncover a new idea is a worthy endeavor, however things truly are simple... its Us, people, who make it complicated. imo
 
Thought here.

The most likely outcome of initiating or performing different variably prefrenced based compositions, where its construction is determined by what is perceivably suitable in a manner of occurring simultaneously, is a sense of cacophony or overly abundant dissonance.

What term or type of term would be given to the concept of rhythms(poly), meters(odd-time and displaced), melodies, harmonies, pitch, intonation, octaves, tones, scales, chords and lyrical content that could occur simultaneous and also though intertwined, separate enough for any listener to follow along with or adequately identify ?

I have been dwindling in to the idea of what I could only describe as a theoretical event in which one could experience layers upon layers of auditory, visual or other stimuli that could be experienced in a 50/50 ratio of being simultaneously perceived and still experience any different individual layer in a way where one could understand how different stimuli can co-exist and reveal how their still separate.

It would be like if you could taste different foods, experience the simultaneous taste of different foods as something completely different and new and still have the sensation of each individual food as if it were never mixed with anything else.

What is the self-righteous word for 'music'? I think it would be 'wanking'.
 
If I get you right, what you are talking about would be similar to what Ives was doing. In an Ives piece you could have a harmonic texture and then a marching band would go by while someone was singing Old Folks at Home or some other folk tune. Mahler, Berg and others also experimented with it.
 
Well music can be whatever it is you want it to be. If it feeds your intellect to dissect the various components and define inner relationships between different constituents of the composition, then that's great. To me it seems like focusing on the trees while ignoring the forest, but maybe I didn't get the full meaning of your really hard to grasp concept.

I spend my life trying to simplify things, not just drumming, and everything you're saying , from what I can decipher, is deliberately trying to complicate things. That's OK, there's room for all different intrepetations, but I guess it goes against my mental grain, so it isn't inviting to me.
 
Our brains already do what you describe; some are better than others at selectively isolating, and some are quite insane.
 
Alright! Finally some that speaks my language!
 
I think if you did as you described, it would be music. But whether it means anything or not is what counts...
 
What term or type of term would be given to the concept of rhythms(poly), meters(odd-time and displaced), melodies, harmonies, pitch, intonation, octaves, tones, scales, chords and lyrical content that could occur simultaneous and also though intertwined, separate enough for any listener to follow along with or adequately identify ?

No need to "dumb the English down"...the answer to your intricate riddle is a simple one. It is simply called "music".
 
What term or type of term would be given to the concept of rhythms(poly), meters(odd-time and displaced), melodies, harmonies, pitch, intonation, octaves, tones, scales, chords and lyrical content that could occur simultaneous and also though intertwined, separate enough for any listener to follow along with or adequately identify ?

No need to "dumb the English down"...the answer to your intricate riddle is a simple one. It is simply called "music".

'Being a pretentious arse' is closer to the mark.
 
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