Stick Control. Closed Roll. Help.

FunkyJazzer

FunkyJazzer

Senior Member
Hey guys.

I'M CONFUSED. I am working religiously through Stick Control and have hit page 12. We've got closed rolls. Now I know that a closed roll relies on rebound for the 2nd stroke whereas an open roll relies on the wrist motion for both strokes. However, I feel I am reading a contradiction within Stick Control itself (unlikely, I know).

On page 12, it describes the first exercises as containing a "9 stroke closed roll" and "7 stroke closed roll" - just like the previous pages where we see "9 stroke open roll" and "7 stroke open roll". Are they both the same except that on the closed roll we use rebound instead of two wrist strokes? Should both rolls sound similar?

My initial answer to that question is yes, but it says at the introduction of Stick Control, "It has several rebounds to each stick movement, instead of just one". This confuses me. How can we have a 9 or 7 stroke roll when there's like 3 or 4 bounces per stroke? Surely that would give us 18 or so strokes? I've been practicing page 12 using double strokes but getting the second stroke entirely with rebound and staying totally relaxed, and it feels pretty good. I just want to make sure I'm practicing them correctly.

Thanks in advance!

Lloyd.
 
Closed rolls incorporate bounce or "rebound" as you stated above. Start off by playing the exercises with two strokes per hand (one primary and one rebound). A closed roll can have a set amount of strokes per hand or can be played as a buzz or press roll where the amount of strokes are uncountable.

Seven stroke: (lower case letter =bounce) Ll Rr Ll R
Nine stroke: Ll Rr Ll Rr L

Here's an example of a seven stroke closed roll with three strokes: Lll Rrr L

Most closed roll exercises will contain two, three and even four strokes per hand with rebound but typically two strokes is the norm. Keep in mind, a closed roll is generally used in orchestral situations where the notes are to be played "Legato" (smooth) versus Stacato. So yes your closed rolls will sound different.
 
Muckster said:
Closed rolls incorporate bounce or "rebound" as you stated above. Start off by playing the exercises with two strokes per hand (one primary and one rebound). A closed roll can have a set amount of strokes per hand or can be played as a buzz or press roll where the amount of strokes are uncountable.

Seven stroke: (lower case letter =bounce) Ll Rr Ll R
Nine stroke: Ll Rr Ll Rr L

Here's an example of a seven stroke closed roll with three strokes: Lll Rrr L

Most closed roll exercises will contain two, three and even four strokes per hand with rebound but typically two strokes is the norm. Keep in mind, a closed roll is generally used in orchestral situations where the notes are to be played "Legato" (smooth) versus Stacato. So yes your closed rolls will sound different.
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Ah! Thanks a lot man. So shall I practice Stick Control using closed double strokes and then when I reach a certain standard with them start increasing the number of rebounds on each hand?

I can play a pretty decent closed roll now, but I can't figure out whether or not I play strokes with 1 rebound or if I use more. I'm trying to break it down and develop it properly from scratch, you see.

Thanks again,

Lloyd.
 
FunkyJazzer said:
Ah! Thanks a lot man. So shall I practice Stick Control using closed double strokes and then when I reach a certain standard with them start increasing the number of rebounds on each hand?

I can play a pretty decent closed roll now, but I can't figure out whether or not I play strokes with 1 rebound or if I use more. I'm trying to break it down and develop it properly from scratch, you see.

Thanks again,

Lloyd.
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Yeah concentrate on closed double strokes for now. Play them slow to grasp the feel then build up the tempo. Working with a metronome would be helpful.
 
My understanding of the difference between, for example ex1 pg11 and ex1 pg12 was that pg11 was, well pretty self-explanatory; straight doubles as a stacato roll. I do page 12 as a buzz roll 'pulsed' as a nine stroke roll ie. ex1 pg10 but buzz those 16ths, thus 3e+a4e+a is a legato press roll "commonly used in light orchestral plaing." So in theory yes as you said the stick will head the head many more times, but it is a nine stroke closed roll through the actual strokes/pulses...Well that's my interpretation
 
Muckster said:
Yeah concentrate on closed double strokes for now. Play them slow to grasp the feel then build up the tempo. Working with a metronome would be helpful.
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If you're playing them as double strokes, they are double-stroke or Open Rolls. For a proper Closed Roll (sometimes called a Buzz or - egads! - a Press Roll), the sticks should rebound multiple times. To practice your buzzes, simply start by dropping (not smashing, driving, throwing or pressing) the stick on the head from as low a height as possible and allow them to buzz until they are all petered out. Alternate hands as 8th-notes at 40-48 BPM and try to lengthen the buzz on each hand so that they come as close to overlapping as possible. It will be difficult at that tempo, but don't worry, the idea right now is just to get some control over your buzzes and be able to get them to be long and legato with as little effort as possible. You will have to remain loose and relaxed to allow the sticks to buzz without letting go altogether. A hint - the stick will essentially be floating on the first crease of your middle finger. Your middle finger will help you control the length/quality of your buzzes. Once you've obtained a nice long buzz, you can experiment with exerting a slight amount of pressure upward with the middle finger to shorten the buzz and/or change the quality of the sound from legato to more staccato. That's a more advanced exercise, however.

At first, allow the drumhead and stick to do most of the work for you. We're trying to control the buzzes (a result of physics) not create them. There is simply no way to get your fingers/wrists moving that fast. As you become able to get a good long, legato buzz with both hands, try speeding up the tempo slightly to close the roll a little more. Not too fast, you want to continue concentrating on being relaxed and letting the buzz be as long as possible. The goal is to eventually have the buzzes overlap, which will require the preceding stick to still be on the head when the following one strikes. In order to do that, a good long, relaxed buzz is necessary with both hands. The tendency is to shorten the buzz time dramatically as we speed up in order to prepare the hand for the next stroke as though we're playing singles. We have to learn to leave it there just a little longer. As my teacher Jim Blackley used to say, "surrender the stick to the drum".

Slow, methodical study of buzz rolls will help your overall touch and sensitivity on the drums. It requires relaxation, patience and fine motor dexterity in the fingers/thumb. Once you can get a decent buzz happening, you can start experimenting with pulsing the roll. That is, in order to know which hand you will begin and end the roll with, you subdivide the roll into an appropriate subdivision for the tempo. For instance, at medium tempos (100-130 or even higher) you can use 16th notes. So if you have a one-beat roll, you can think of playing 4 buzzed sixteenths. At slower tempos, smaller subdivisions are necessary to get the roll to sound smooth - i.e. at 35 - 50, I'd probably use 32nd notes. As I approached 200 I'd be using 8th-note triplets or even 8ths as my "pulse". Too low a subdivision and roll sounds loose and unconnected. To many and the roll can sound forced and scratchy, though that may be exactly the sound you're looking for. That said, for general purposes, you should not hear the pulse in the roll, only think it and choosing a subdivision for the tempo is about finding one that you can play in a relaxed way and get the appropriate texture from the roll. A buzz roll is - as Stone writes in Stick Control - the drummer's long note or tone: a steady stream of sound connecting one beat to another.
 
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Yes, good post, Boomka. To be clear, open roll is a double stroke roll, closed roll is multiple rebounds.
Casper
 
Hmm, fair enough Boomka. Can't really argue with Blackley.

When I said double strokes, I don't literally mean a double stroke open roll. I thought that you could develop open and closed rolls just with double strokes. They would sound similar, but completely different techinques would be employed (the closed roll allowing you to be much faster).

Either way, I'm going to practice very slow buzz rolls like you suggest Boomka.

Thanks a lot guys!

Lloyd.
 
FunkyJazzer said:
Hmm, fair enough Boomka. Can't really argue with Blackley.
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Sure you can... But mind yourself or the ol' Scotsman will put you in your place. :) That said, I've been careful never to tread those waters for long. He's usually about 5 steps ahead of me...

When I said double strokes, I don't literally mean a double stroke open roll. I thought that you could develop open and closed rolls just with double strokes. They would sound similar, but completely different techinques would be employed (the closed roll allowing you to be much faster).
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Well, you do see some guys doing the Open-Closed-Open thing with their rolls (Billy Ward for instance) where they start with doubles using wrist strokes, move into doubles using bounce/fingers for the second stroke and then at a certain tempo close the roll into buzzes before coming back out again...

It's easy to get lost in terminology, but my understanding of a Closed Roll is that it is a Multiple Bounce Roll. And as the question came re: Stick Control, it's my understanding that that's what Stone meant by a Closed Roll as well.
 
Alright man, cheers!

Also Boomka, I've ordered Syncopated Rolls! I ordered about 3 1/2 weeks ago, I'm getting a bit impatient now! :)

I'll be in contact if (when) I have some trouble with it ;)
 
Boomka said:
I
For instance, at medium tempos (100-130 or even higher) you can use 16th notes. So if you have a one-beat roll, you can think of playing 4 buzzed sixteenths. At slower tempos, smaller subdivisions are necessary to get the roll to sound smooth - i.e. at 35 - 50, I'd probably use 32nd notes. As I approached 200 I'd be using 8th-note triplets or even 8ths as my "pulse". Too low a subdivision and roll sounds loose and unconnected. .
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boomka, would you say there are tempos where no pulse in time really works well, or is it a matter of skill again?
 
CJM said:
boomka, would you say there are tempos where no pulse in time really works well, or is it a matter of skill again?
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The point of using a pulse is simply to get the sound you want and to be able to enter and exit the roll in a planned fashion. If you have the dexterity to get in and out of your rolls on either hand, then you can take your chances. That also requires a great sense of pulse, because then you're having your hands play willy nilly while trying to figure out where the beat is. If I'm playing a long roll - perhaps on a fermata or cadenza - or a roll which doesn't need a punctuation single at the end, I'll sometimes just start rolling and worry about stopping when it's time.

Another thing that can help is to learn odd-numbered groupings like 5s and 7s. You notice that in Stick Control, Stone introduces 10-stroke and 14-stroke rolls - i.e. 5 and 7 wrist strokes per hand. They naturally come out on the opposite hand. If you can get them under your hands it can really help with filling those "blind" tempos.
 
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