Is Tama a Bad Company?

Sometimes, stuff just happens coincidentally.

Back in the mid 80s I decided to design a completely different drum kit based on electronics. Specifically, I designed an interface board so that I could "play" an Oberheim DMX drum machine (this was pre-MIDI). For the pads, I originally looked at my Simmons pads but then decided to do something entirely different. I came up with a rectangular box that contained eight pads arrayed in two rows of four. They were rectangular, used a gum rubber batter surface, mounted with foam rubber to add some extra cushion and used a piezo transducer for each pad. Imagine my surprise when a year later Roland introduced the original Octapad with two rows of four rectangular pads, each using piezo transducers and a rubberized surface. I made mine from wood thanks to a local cabinet maker while there's was plastic.

Did they steal this idea from me? If I was paranoid I might think so. But no, it's a logical design and not surprising that two engineers on opposite sides of the planet, each working with new technology towards a similar goal, came up with near identical designs.


This is not to say that I don't believe that some people running corporations are avaricious bastards who'd steal their grandmother's cane if it they could get away with it.
 
That is surprising and not. But would make for a good spy novel hah!
A very short spy novel ;)

I have no idea as to the validity of the Tama story. At the very least, I suspect a degree of "embellishment", but it should come as no surprise that some executives of major companies seek to score an easy win if they stumble across one. i'm not referring specifically to drum companies, but instead to all companies. There's bad apples in every company, & corporate greed examples are documented daily. There's great people in corporations too, & they're the ones with a strong moral compass who stop to think if they should, even though they can.

As a general observation, unless something is protected, then it's fair game. Even if you have patented & otherwise protected your idea/product/brand, your protection is only as good as your ability to defend it, & usually in an overseas jurisdiction. in other words, true global protection is way beyond the means of even sizeable privately owned companies.

What I do find distasteful is when a larger company seeks to exclude others from using designs that have been around for many years, & used by many. Such designs may have remained in the industry unprotected, mostly because builders didn't think they would need protecting. To exclude others from a pretty generic design using legal muscle on the basis it will be unchallenged due to cost of litigation, is a very low blow, especially as it's completely unnecessary. Sure, claim the credit of the design, build a marketing campaign around it & give it brand identity, no foul there, it's business, but to squash others in your wake for no good reason other than to garner yourself with some form of faux credibility is just horrible.
 
Jimmy Page didn't wrote "Stairway to Heaven", he stole the lick from another band and made a masterpiece of it...

... this kinda stuff happen all the time in all industries.

Tama is as good as all the other major brands and was often a pioneer in hardware design, their stuff has been copied too.
 
I began reading that thread and immediately stopped after a couple of posts; when he gets to the part about the young couple coming in and the woman is a "sixth generation psychic". Right, and I'm a 10th generation zebra who just happens to look like a human. From that point on I don't care because if people buy that they'll buy anything.

I saw that part also,and thought,...wow,did I forget to feed my unicorn,and my flying spaghetti monster today?My pet dragon has been pretty grumply lately also.

If anyone thinks that industrial espionage dosen't happen on a regular basis,with just about any company you can think of....you're living inside a bubble.Companies rip one another off...EVERY SINGLE DAY.Forget ...buying from ...good people,who make good products.With little exception,that really dosen't happen in the real world.

A true custom builder,like Guru,uses very little outsourced parts for their drums.They make a truly ,original product.My German butcher,makes all of their own cold cuts,sausages and all of their other prepared foods.,but they still have to buy the meat.

There was a movie about how Ford motors,ripped of the the idea, and mechanics of the intermittent windshield wiper,and the inventor ,got zip.

A good friend of mine,invented a training device,that helps teach firemen,how to breach a door.The device can be used thousands of times,without having to buy a new door,everytime you teach forced entry.This device has a US patent.Someone copied this device,changed one or two little things,and now he's selling it.My friend sued,and lost

I't's an old story.Drum companies ripped each other off all the time,and still do,as do any other musical instrument companies.Just ask Jim Marshall(Marshall Amps),where he got the design for his amps.From Leo Fender,that's who.He copied Fenders basic electronic design,and built his own cabinets,and ...viola....Marshall amps.Ludwig invented the triple flanged rim...........how many drums ..don't use triple flanged rims?Not very many.Billy Gladstone ,invented and patented the remote Hi Hat....in 1939.How many companies offer remote hi hats?

So don't be upset,about that Tama story,besides,you're only hearing one side of the story.Stories,ALWAYS,have more than one side to them...I'm a retired NYPD detective.....I know that for sure.

Tama still makes great ply drums,and hardware,but if i decided not to buy from any company that ripped another company off,I wouldn't be able to buy almost anything,ever again.

Steve B
 
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I hear you, Steve, but it was interesting to read how C&C got started and how Tama and a psychic played a role in it.
 
it was interesting to read how C&C got started and how Tama and a psychic played a role in it.

...indeed, and as i understand it, tama/hoshino's involvement in the joint purchase of the then defunct camco company also "seeded" the rise of dw (perhaps atoning for some of its corporate transgressions?)...

...it would be interesting to know exactly how the purchase of camco was structured (who paid what, etc.), since its seems dw received the real assets of the company (machinery + molds, etc.), while hoshino received the intellectual property rights (camco name + drum design drawings, etc)...tho both companies seemed to have used camo's drum pedal designs for their subsequent "proprietary" pedals...
 
...indeed, and as i understand it, tama/hoshino's involvement in the joint purchase of the then defunct camco company also "seeded" the rise of dw (perhaps atoning for some of its corporate transgressions?)...

...it would be interesting to know exactly how the purchase of camco was structured (who paid what, etc.), since its seems dw received the real assets of the company (machinery + molds, etc.), while hoshino received the intellectual property rights (camco name + drum design drawings, etc)...tho both companies seemed to have used camo's drum pedal designs for their subsequent "proprietary" pedals...

Full disclosure, I didn't even know that DW pedals were based much off of the Camco gear. I just bought in to DW when I started and didn't look back so it was interesting to image search those old pedals. Haven't changed a lot in my opinion.
 
Full disclosure, I didn't even know that DW pedals were based much off of the Camco gear. I just bought in to DW when I started and didn't look back so it was interesting to image search those old pedals. Haven't changed a lot in my opinion.

The Gretsch free floater pedal is also based off of the Camco design,in fact,Camco used to make their pedals for them. And if you dig a little deeper than that ,Walberg and Auge,made nearly EVERBODYS hardware ,back in the day.Even if it was stamped Ludwig,Slingerland,,Gretsch...it was made by W &A.

DW,was just a parts hanger,who no original designs,and used Keller shells,and Camco hardware,and outsoursed their other hardware.,and then just hung a DW badge on their drums.

Gretsch hasn't made their own drums shells since the 50's,and used Jasper,and Now Keller shells.

What does it all mean.?They all sound different,and look slightly different.Almost all of the current drums designs,started life on a different brand of drums.That dosen't make ANY company bad,just different.

Steve B
 
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The Gretsch free floater pedal is also based off of the Camco design,in fact,Camco used to make their pedals for them. And if you dig a little deeper that that Walberg and Auge,made nearly EVERBODYS hardware ,back in the day.Even if it was stamped Ludwig,Slingerland,,Gretsch...it was made by W &A.

DW,was just a parts hanger,who no original designs,and used Keller shells,and Camco hardware,and outsoursed their other hardware.,and then just hung a DQ badge on their drums.

Gretsch hasn't made their own drums shells since the 50's,and used Jasper,and Now Keller shells.

What does it all mean.?They all sound different,and look slightly different.Almost all of the current drums designs,started life on a different brand of drums.That dosen't make ANY company bad,just different.

Steve B

Semi-disappointing. This is like the day I realized all my favorite drummers were Hal Blaine ;)
 
At the very least, I suspect a degree of "embellishment",

What could possibly have given you that impression, Andy?

Was it the 18 posts needed to finally make a point? Or the reliance on sixth generation psychics and fourth generation tooth fairies in order to help validate the story?

But at the end of the day, by piecing together that jigsaw puzzle I'm gathering that it's being alleged that big business has a tendency to act unscrupulously. Really? Has this been happening long? :)
 
DW,was just a parts hanger,who no original designs,and used Keller shells,and Camco hardware,and outsoursed their other hardware.,and then just hung a DQ badge on their drums. Steve B

How dare you tell the truth Steve ! lol........ I am going to report you to the "wood whisperer" because he whispers wood.

He has "shell technology" !!
 
Did they steal this idea from me? If I was paranoid I might think so. But no, it's a logical design and not surprising that two engineers on opposite sides of the planet, each working with new technology towards a similar goal, came up with near identical designs.

^ This.

I tried reading that thread, and found it difficult to read, so I'm not entirely sure what anyone did wrong.

When I worked in drum store retail, I had many people come in over the years who had some brilliant, great, mind-blowing idea they thought was totally original that they wanted to being to the market. And 100% of the time, their "original" idea was something someone else was already making.

And I can't tell you how many times I've been to NAMM and seen someone pushing some "great new" concept to me, when I all I can think is "yeah, there was another guy selling the same product here last year". There is only so much anyone can do with a round piece of plywood with a plastic membrane stretched over it. Almost nothing anyone makes in ply drums is a new concept.

And if you are at NAMM, all the companies have people walking around to every other booth and taking pictures of everyone else's products so they can go back home and design their own version of whatever.
 
O Lordy I went to sleep on page one of the story of the psychic and how it panned out. I dont think any large corporation being on the nose is news.

The car you drive has "stolen" technology ( like the intermittent wipers that a backyard boffin , an Australian I think, "invented" and got ripped off)

The petrol you put in the car is likely from a company that flouts enviornmental laws ( Excon / Alaska Chevron Venezuala, BP Gulf of Mexico etc)

Farmers get screwed for the produce you eat etc etc

So bottom line if you want to support the "good guy" then buying from local "cottage" industries is the only choice.

In terms of musical instruments I try and buy from a bricks and mortar locally owned shop ( unless I buy second hand)_ and where I can afford it have bought things like snares made from local ( Eucalyptus) wood made by "artisans" such as Brady and Metro drums.

If I had more money or lived in the UK I would try to buy at least a snare from Guru (Andys business)

Sadly at some point you have to make a financial / availability decision. I have Yamaha and Tama drum stuff and have "mass made" cymbals like Zildjian and Sabian (along with my hand made Turkish Cymbals ). I am sure each of those companies has a less than perfect corporate citizenship, but short of living in a hippy commune I can only do so much for the little guy.

So I understand your desire not to buy Tama on Coporate grounds, but I hope you dont buy sweat shop clothing etc etc while singling one company out for attention.

Rant over

All the best
 
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