Church gigs?

Polly: here is my take on your post.

I played in a church band for 12 straight years. I received ZERO pay for 12 years. I was never even offered a dime. I never asked for a dime either.

I rehearsed Sunday AM's and Sunday PM's then you perform the "show" after the rehearsals. I played charts, tracks in my ears, click tracks, everything you can imagine. I played acoustic drums and electric during the span.

Oldies don't handle rock music well. I don't like "traditional" hymns styles at all, never have.

My daughters and wife also played but not all 12 years. Wife on keys/piano and kids on viola. During special performances where we would put on say 6 live shows for Christmas/Easter etc (big orchestra with 30 or more musicians).....they would need extra musicians for the full sound and would PAY college students about 200 per gig! Did I get upset at this? Yes.

But when all was said and done both my daughters got full ride music scholarships at the "related" university. I figure I played/paid for their education.

Churches will use you until you drop if you let them. My brother is currently a hired drummer for a local church in Calif. Cheers.
 
The general consensus of christian rock can be pretty poor, but you have to think about a number of things...

There's a difference between 'worship music' and plain christian rock. There are obvious limits to 'worship music'; these songs have to be played and sung by an incredible range of musicians from the complete amateurs to near professionals. As well as being sung by church congregations, where formal vocal training is generally not required. I dont know of anyone talking about the musical qualities of hymns, because that's not really the point.

This can limit the musicianship of the actual recordings, but I have had some of the most incredible musical experiences playing at church meetings with immensely talented musicians. There's nothing quite like leading people into a place of closeness with God, it is improvisation at its best, responding to the atmosphere and helping create one.

Having said that, the obsession with U2 needs to go, and christian musical styles move about three times slower than secular music.
 
I saw this thread last night and badly wanted to reply, but a couple of bottles of wine and the whole needing to sleep thing kind of made me wait until this morning.

I've played in worship/praise teams for five years now, in three different churches (due to my former career in the Army, not because of any problems with the churches). I'll preface my statements by saying that I *am* a practicing nondenominational Christian.

I got the "gig" at these churches because my wife and I became members. When we look for churches in a new town, one of our key selling points is a worship team that at the very least has potential. In some cases, I've ended up playing with some very excellent professional musicians week after week. In some cases, it approaches work.

While I'm not going to say that no church should hire non-members to provide music, the reason most churches do so is to ensure that the musicians are able to convey the spirit and message of the music in order to bring the church body into closer communication with God. The thinking is, this will be much easier if the musicians can identify with that worshipful attitude. I can attest to having my best playing moments at my last church, behind a world-class worship team, and having some powerful experiences myself.

In these situations, the playing is a volunteer commitment, because it's a ministry, same as childcare or ushering. Nobody pays those people for volunteering their time and effort, because it's freely given. And nobody is forced into anything.

I'm not sure where the "U2 sound" thing comes from. Most of the music I have played in five years gets to draw on all sorts of influences. My cohorts and I have sneaked Latin rhythms, some metal riffs, and pretty blatant quotes from the Moody Blues, Filter, and Bon Jovi (to name a few) into the songs we play. Maybe this is because I don't tend to listen to the original recordings and we just play the song the way we would want to hear it.

As far as rocking too hard for the congregation - this has been referred to in praise bands as the "worship wars" for many years. A lot of it has to do with preconceived notions that a lot of people bring to church, that we should be quiet and meek and eyes turned down and the music should be vanilla and unobtrusive. The newer way of thinking is that getting people moving, excited, and celebrating in praise is the key, and to do that with most people is to play energetic music. (I bet you can see on which side of the debate I fall.) What that means is that to energize and engage one group of people, you risk alienating others, and typically this is the older churchgoer, unfortunately. (In one church where we had just got a new pastor and worship leader, about twenty people left the next Sunday. One older lady held her hands over her ears the entire set.)

There's a large distinction between the bands that play actively in churches and the recording/performing artists who write the most prevalent "Christian contemporary" music today (although many of them also perform in churches every week). Perhaps most telling iis that while I love to play in churches (and often play songs by those artists) - I very rarely, if ever, listen to them myself.
 
KBadd said:
Polly: here is my take on your post.

I played in a church band for 12 straight years. I received ZERO pay for 12 years. I was never even offered a dime. I never asked for a dime either.

I rehearsed Sunday AM's and Sunday PM's then you perform the "show" after the rehearsals. I played charts, tracks in my ears, click tracks, everything you can imagine. I played acoustic drums and electric during the span.

Oldies don't handle rock music well. I don't like "traditional" hymns styles at all, never have.

My daughters and wife also played but not all 12 years. Wife on keys/piano and kids on viola. During special performances where we would put on say 6 live shows for Christmas/Easter etc (big orchestra with 30 or more musicians).....they would need extra musicians for the full sound and would PAY college students about 200 per gig! Did I get upset at this? Yes.

But when all was said and done both my daughters got full ride music scholarships at the "related" university. I figure I played/paid for their education.

Churches will use you until you drop if you let them. My brother is currently a hired drummer for a local church in Calif. Cheers.
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Yeah, that's pretty much how I look at it. I've spent about 5 1/2 years playing at churches. I look at this as part of my musical education until I get that opportunity to start getting paid to play. I look at it as an internship because, although you're not getting paid and the music itself may not be your cup of tea, the experience you get playing in front of people and working with other musicians on a regular basis is invaluable.

Churches will use you though which is why I've really had to set boundaries as to how much of my time I'm willing to volunteer. On a monthly basis, I play as much as anyone at my church, paid staff and volunteers included. When I get calls to play for Thursday night prayer or to sub for another drummer on top of what I'm already doing, my answer is always no. There are other drummers at the church who can play. Call them. If you want to use me like an on-call employee, start paying me.
 
They get their money for nothing and their musicians for free.

It is a sin to not pay musicians. What is wrong with musicians, thought to be so worthless that they do not deserve to be paid???

I bet they pay their plumbers and electricians. Musicians who play for free at these places deserve to be tared and feathered. They are an abject disgrace to our profession. They belittle us in every way.
 
wy yung said:
They get their money for nothing and their musicians for free.

It is a sin to not pay musicians. What is wrong with musicians, thought to be so worthless that they do not deserve to be paid???

I bet they pay their plumbers and electricians. Musicians who play for free at these places deserve to be tared and feathered. They are an abject disgrace to our profession. They belittle us in every way.
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Tarred and feathered lol? If you're being serious, that's a little extreme, don't you think? I'm curious to hear why you think that.

But yeah, sometimes I do get frustrated with the volunteer aspect of playing. It would be nice to get paid.....something, anything, at the very least so I can say I get paid to play. Some churches can't afford it, but some churches (like mine) just don't think they should have to. In the meantime though, you get what you pay for. The church I go to has a long way to go in the musicianship department. I play on one band at my church that is pretty awesome with some really great musicians, but the other bands at my church have a good amount of work to do yet. So if you're not going to pay your musicians, don't expect great sounding worship for services.
 
alparrott said:
Perhaps most telling iis that while I love to play in churches (and often play songs by those artists) - I very rarely, if ever, listen to them myself.
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Exactly. Same here.

I'm not a fan of 99% of the stuff on Christian radio. I think I've purchased only 2 or 3 new Christian records in the past 5 years.

The first time I hear most of the new songs we play is when the worship leader sends a file or link of it for practice.
 
wy yung said:
They get their money for nothing and their musicians for free.

It is a sin to not pay musicians. What is wrong with musicians, thought to be so worthless that they do not deserve to be paid???

I bet they pay their plumbers and electricians. Musicians who play for free at these places deserve to be tared and feathered. They are an abject disgrace to our profession. They belittle us in every way.
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In one sense I agree (not with tar and feathering, but with your anger) and in another I disagree. I've been playing in my church for over 5 years now and have never been paid, nor do I think I should be. I've only recently become a member, as that is not required to play in the worship team. But, we as a worship team were paid when we were asked to participate in a Christian teachers conference that required us to pack up our things and travel a good ways. I would have felt cheated if we were not paid because I knew they could afford it. To me, it all depends on the situation and the type and size of that church, and the wealth or non-wealth of the church itself. No one is forcing me to play for nothing. I still consider this the best gig in the world for me. Getting paid for it is not a high priority. But, yes, some churches should be paying their musicians, especially if they put in quite a bit of time for it.
 
wy yung said:
They get their money for nothing and their musicians for free.

It is a sin to not pay musicians. What is wrong with musicians, thought to be so worthless that they do not deserve to be paid???

I bet they pay their plumbers and electricians. Musicians who play for free at these places deserve to be tared and feathered. They are an abject disgrace to our profession. They belittle us in every way.
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You're missing a very key aspect of this equation, Wy. The music in church is not there to further the musicians' lifestyle.... it's there to add to the worship experience. The ushers, chair stackers, projectionists, Sunday School teachers, and childcare are all done on volunteer basis too, as ministries, not jobs.

I agree that in the real world, musicians shouldn't play for free. But the reason there's music in church is so far removed from why there's music in bars and dance halls and arenas, that to rail against it in these terms is perhaps off base.

I have played for free for "these places" not because I don't think I deserve to be paid, or that I'm worthless, but because in playing to serve my church, I am supporting the church's work in the community and around the world. Churches exist almost solely by donation and by charity of others. Taking that money which could be spent building a school or getting a third-world village fresh drinking water or caring for the homeless in winter is not my interest. Getting people into the church to worship and to support those worthy causes is.

The music is not free. It is just freely given.

Come bring your tar and feathers.
 
bpumpkin said:
Tarred and feathered lol? If you're being serious, that's a little extreme, don't you think? I'm curious to hear why you think that.
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By working for free they devalue us.

I've put 33 years into dedicated study. A doctor does what, 12? These musicians are a disgrace.

Artists have always been disrespected and abused. How does playing for free help us overcome this shame???

Tared and feathered is too good for these people.
 
wy yung said:
They get their money for nothing and their musicians for free.

It is a sin to not pay musicians. What is wrong with musicians, thought to be so worthless that they do not deserve to be paid???

I bet they pay their plumbers and electricians. Musicians who play for free at these places deserve to be tared and feathered. They are an abject disgrace to our profession. They belittle us in every way.
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Churches are charities, not businesses, owned by the people, for the people. Playing for free is giving, its a musician's way of doing his or her part, giving back to the establishment and group of people who have given so much.

From my experience, very few church members who give a service are paid for their work, but those who are (Leaders), have a much higher level of commitment expected, and the pay is to supplement the loss of income from spending 3 days a week working for the church.

I dont know if the case is the same for really big churches, but a church musician's services are a gift to the church, and if you dont like it, you can leave.
 
rhydianjlewis said:
Churches are charities, not businesses, owned by the people, for the people. Playing for free is giving, its a musician's way of doing his or her part, giving back to the establishment and group of people who have given so much.

From my experience, very few church members who give a service are paid for their work, but those who are (Leaders), have a much higher level of commitment expected, and the pay is to supplement the loss of income from spending 3 days a week working for the church.

I dont know if the case is the same for really big churches, but a church musician's services are a gift to the church, and if you dont like it, you can leave.
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They pay no tax. Surely they can pay their musicians. By not paying they show us disrespect. Our services are as important as any other. Do they pay for food, electricity, gas? Of course they do. But musicians are somehow worthless and disrespect is normal?? But if musicians are so worthless, why use them in church to begin with??? Because they make the church experience more enjoyable and worthwhile and bring in more dollars? Dollars which are a tax free haven mind.

HELLO!!!!

Musicians deserve to be paid for their efforts.
 
wy yung said:
They pay no tax. Surely they can pay their musicians. By not paying they show us disrespect. Our services are as important as any other. Do they pay for food, electricity, gas? Of course they do. But musicians are somehow worthless and disrespect is normal?? But if musicians are so worthless, why use them in church to begin with??? Because they make the church experience more enjoyable and worthwhile and bring in more dollars? Dollars which are a tax free haven mind.

HELLO!!!!

Musicians deserve to be paid for their efforts.
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If you would read a post for a second.... there are plenty of other people doing plenty of other things in churches that don't get paid either. It's called "service", "ministry", and "volunteering" among other things. Musicians are not singled out in this way at any church I've ever gone to.

In my church, we donate money so that people can serve on mission trips in far-flung corners of the world to improve others' quality of life. They dig wells, feed the hungry, care for the sick, build schools and orphanages, assist with disaster relief, and meet any number of other needs in communities around the world.

Not only do they NOT get paid to do this, but many of them pay their own way for the PRIVILEGE to serve in this manner. In your opinion, though, they do it because they don't think they deserve to, and because they are worthless...?

This is not some anti-musician conspiracy, and I'm sorry you feel this way. I have never for a moment thought less of myself for contributing time or effort in this way, nor have I ever expected compensation for serving people in this way, no more than any other person who works for free at my church. I would go so far as to say that expecting payment when these other people do not, is incredibly egotistical. Think for a second why we might do it - a higher calling, perhaps?

In the end, since you likely have no interest playing for a church as an act of service, why fret about those of us who do, yet gladly accept payment for our services outside of church? People aren't coming to church for the music. They come for the Word. If they want to hear me play without any of that, they will pay to do so. That in no way devalues me as a musician.
 
alparrott said:
If you would read a post for a second.... there are plenty of other people doing plenty of other things in churches that don't get paid either.
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I read the posts. And I think what you have pointed out is an utter disgrace. All these people working and not being paid. Its called slavery.
 
And why are you speaking out against musicians being paid?? Do you feel worthless as a musician? Is your talent and hard work nothing? Is your individuality, who you are as a person so utterly worthless?

Musicianship is something that should be prized. Not placed on a scrapheap. I am speaking for your worth. You are speaking on behalf of your worthlessness.

WTF is going on in your mind???
 
alparrott said:
People aren't coming to church for the music. They come for the Word. If they want to hear me play without any of that, they will pay to do so. That in no way devalues me as a musician.
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That is not entirely true. People come for the worship music as well. A healthy church will at the very least try to put a strong emphasis on both the music and the Word. I do agree with you that volunteering at your church is an act of charity though.

wy yung said:
I read the posts. And I think what you have pointed out is an utter disgrace. All these people working and not being paid. Its called slavery.
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No sorry, I can't go with you there. Slavery is involuntary labor. That's not what these churches are doing at all. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You're free to quit playing anytime you want for whatever reason and no one will think the less of you for it.
 
wy yung said:
And why are you speaking out against musicians being paid?? Do you feel worthless as a musician? Is your talent and hard work nothing? Is your individuality, who you are as a person so utterly worthless?

Musicianship is something that should be prized. Not placed on a scrapheap. I am speaking for your worth. You are speaking on behalf of your worthlessness.

WTF is going on in your mind???
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I could ask the same thing. Is everyone who works for a church, expecting no compensation because they are doing it selflessly, likewise a slave? Or just musicians?

My talent and hard work is worth something. That's why it is a gift with meaning. I am NOT speaking out against musicians being paid for playing in church or any other setting, I am simply explaining why so many choose to do it for free. If some churches pay, that's great for the musicians. If some musicians get paid for playing at church, I just hope the church is well financed enough to afford it without cutting into other ministry needs.

I'm not speaking on behalf of worthlessness, I'm speaking on behalf of doing something for others without expecting anything in return. It's the definition of charity.

If you could please explain to me how this has directly resulted in me being paid less for gigs elsewhere, or got you paid less, for that matter, it would certainly give me pause for reflection. But I would point out that I have been hired for many of my best-paying gigs in theater and session work because someone had recommended me on the basis of my playing at church. Oh wait, church playing got me paid work?

It's been real, Wy, but I'm nobody's slave... just someone who enjoys helping people enjoy church a little more. When that starts biting into any of your paychecks, let me know, and I'll spot you some money.
 
bpumpkin said:
No sorry, I can't go with you there. Slavery is involuntary labor. That's not what these churches are doing at all. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You're free to quit playing anytime you want for whatever reason and no one will think the less of you for it.
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Are you sure? There is some heavy emotional baggage attached to the worship of a deity. A massive amount really. I am a minister and I know how things are done and how people are manipulated.

The idea that a professional should not be paid is at odds with the wider world. It only exists in a church.

By the way, how to manipulate a congregation is religion 101. I know. I lived it. It is what made me Lose my religion, so to speak.

I am not charging you for this. I am honest. You don't see this in a church. Embrace it. I am the only priest who did not tell you lies. Nor molested small children. I am just a drummer.
 
Swiss, I am helping because I can. I hope I can help. My health issues inspire my help as well. I am trapped at the pc. At this time I cannot walk. Both knees have seized up.

I expect nothing. A church expects its services and its pay. This is simply how it is. At this pc without the ability to walk, I expect nothing. I simply love drummers. I adore them and want them to be paid. They deserve it.
 
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