Super-simple drumming

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Bermuda. That was really interesting. It makes sense intuitively.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Thanks Bermuda. That was really interesting. It makes sense intuitively.

Thanks, and I should add that such changes in tempo are usually ramped up/down over a few bars so it's smooth and not so obvious. It's easy to assign very specific and gradual changes in ProTools or Logic, etc.

Bermuda

[donv]

Originally Posted by bermuda

A tempo map is simply a click that's got fluctualtions built-in, as not every song sounds 'good' when one exact tempo is applied. Some things sound more natural if allowed to move a bit in sections, such as a chorus being 2bpm faster. It doesn't sound out of time, it's very subtle, but it would sound draggy if allowed to stay at the same tempo as the verse.

We've 'engineered' tempos a number of times. Earliest I recall was Smells Like Nirvana, where doing the song in perfect time just didn't sound right, so the choruses were sped up a bit to match Nirvana's energy. But when you listen to Nirvana play Teen Spirit, it doesn't sound like it fluctuates, it just sounds right for the music. In fact, the tempos are all over the place.

So we could have created some natural sounding fluctuations for the WS soundalike, but it sounds right at a perfect tempo, too. For live, if we weren't running a video, I wouldn't be on a click, we'd just go for it. It's only guitar and drums, and the guitar player and I work very well together time-wise.

Bermuda

I just read in the January 2008 or 9 Modern Drummer an interview with Geoge Duke where he discusses some the drummers he's played with. One of the drummers that stuck out in the interview was his discussion of Chancellor and Brazilian drummers in general. The drummers slow the tempo down on 1 after any of the various transitions that happen within the music. Duke says that he doesn't know why he can't get other drummers to do this because of the feel, that he appreciates, that it adds to the music.

It's also interesting when listening to a lot of the old big band classics because they were obviously not playing to a click. I watched a special on Johnny Mercer the other night, and the band that was playing "That Old Black Magic," was all over the place with the tempo, yet I can imagine the song having anywhere the near the same feel if it had been played to a click.

[BassDriver]

Okay, who is better...a drummer on the level of Phil Rudd, or a drummer on the level of Tomas Lang, Virgil, Peart, Weckl?

The difference is how many gigs you get.

One of my drum teachers once said that "they [simple playing drummers] get paid a million bucks for every hit they play, but someone like Lang has to strike a million times for that".....or something along those lines...

...but he added that the drummers who play that simple are very good time keepers, he said that if you saw where their strikes land in relation to where they should be on a drum machine, they are almost spot-on just a fraction of a second behind...they are the ones that get the gigs.

...but IMHO, simple is boring...just add a bit of spice and still "keep it real" and keep it musically suiting what the other musicians are playing and that sounds good. Complexity in moderation is best, not too simple (like your examples) or too complicated (ie. Virgil drum solo) just find a balance...take this how-ever you want.

And on another note, I always thought John Dolmayan was more along the line of a Keep it Simple player.

...ah...no...John is more a follower of the complexicity in moderation philosophy

Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNiM...video_response

...what a legend!

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

...but IMHO, simple is boring...just add a bit of spice and still "keep it real" and keep it musically suiting what the other musicians are playing and that sounds good. Complexity in moderation is best, not too simple (like your examples) or too complicated (ie. Virgil drum solo) just find a balance...take this how-ever you want.

There can't always be a compromise, just as drumming can't always be simple, or can't always be complex. The music always dictates what parts get played, and there's really a fairly narrow range of parts that will work. Good drummers know how wide that range is and get close to the edges without going over.

But the best drummers know to stay right down the middle.

Bermuda

[Pollyanna]

Agree Bermuda, I think it depends. It's all about the song and the other musicians. You wouldn't have Ringo's backbeat with Mahavishnu and you wouldn't want Billy Cobham's virtuosity with The Beatles.

In the non-pro ranks it not only depends on the music but on capability. Is it better to stay within our ability and play more accurately or to play in a complex manner with sloppiness?

Overplaying - essentially using the band as a practice vehicle rather than serving the music - is the most common mistake of hobbyist drummers.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard a drummer (including me) screw up a groove trying to play something they hope will be impressive I'd have enough cash to go on holidays. So, complexity is good when the music calls for it AND you have sufficient control. Not otherwise.

When we play busily, our timing errors are less noticeable. It just sounds like the band is not quite together. When we play simply any errors stand out more as our own. There can be an unconscious element of selfishness in busy drumming for both that reason and also because we fill spaces and limit the other musicians' options.

In the pro ranks, it's more a matter of taste. If the song gives a lot of people joy then the drumming is effective.

[theindian]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

Okay, who is better...a drummer on the level of Phil Rudd, or a drummer on the level of Tomas Lang, Virgil, Peart, Weckl?

The difference is how many gigs you get.

One of my drum teachers once said that "they [simple playing drummers] get paid a million bucks for every hit they play, but someone like Lang has to strike a million times for that".....or something along those lines...

...but he added that the drummers who play that simple are very good time keepers, he said that if you saw where their strikes land in relation to where they should be on a drum machine, they are almost spot-on just a fraction of a second behind...they are the ones that get the gigs.

...but IMHO, simple is boring...just add a bit of spice and still "keep it real" and keep it musically suiting what the other musicians are playing and that sounds good. Complexity in moderation is best, not too simple (like your examples) or too complicated (ie. Virgil drum solo) just find a balance...take this how-ever you want.



...ah...no...John is more a follower of the complexicity in moderation philosophy

Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNiM...video_response

...what a legend!

At the end of the day you have to play what the music calls for. I like to be creative, I've got a lot of f/x cymbals and 6 pedal setup on my kit (btw I love Axis pedals), and with that I can play some amazing stuff. All of those things don't usually get used when I play in a group setting though. For the most part the drums are there for a steady beat. And speaking of gigs ,the original band I play with has room for experimentation and there are drum breaks, a short solo, and peaks of songs where I "chop away." This one doesn't pay much money but I do it for the love of music and for the freedom and creative control.

In the cover band I play with, which would be the higher paying gig, I use my basic 4 piece kit, and stay pretty true to the original parts. Your there to entertain and keep people dancing and drinking. One gig is more fun, one is still fun, slightly more straight forward but more regular and better pay.

I hear ya, about John Dolmayan and I'm not knocking his playing at all but compared to the rest of the players you mentioned (Chad Smith, Stewart Copeland, Dennis Chambers) his playing is pretty straight forward. System's music is deceptively simple and he plays what fits. The Toxicity album is a prime example. For the most part it is metal music with some other styles mixed in, and with that the drums can do more than basic rock/pop stuff, which he does. He doesn't usually take it beyond basic groove metal with a hint of latin though. Anymore and it would not fit. He obviously thinks about his parts, how they fit the music and his drumming improved with each album.


Overall, as drummers, unless you are the feature and have your own backing band, we are here to keep time.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by theindian

I hear ya, about John Dolmayan and I'm not knocking his playing at all but compared to the rest of the players you mentioned (Chad Smith, Stewart Copeland, Dennis Chambers) his playing is pretty straight forward. System's music is deceptively simple and he plays what fits.

... He doesn't usually take it beyond basic groove metal with a hint of latin though. Anymore and it would not fit. He obviously thinks about his parts, how they fit the music and his drumming improved with each album.

In a related vein, a drummer that gets me is Brad Wilk from Rage Against the Machine. He thinks through his drum parts, based on strong, clean, simple phrases and it's all neatly squared off. All that power and groove ... yeah!

It's funny ... in rock I enjoy the music of bands with drummers who play really squared off neatly like that, whereas in jazz and a lot of fusion the group sound seems to work better when drummers' lines seem more randomised, running across the bars and flowing.

[JT1]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

In a related vein, a drummer that gets me is Brad Wilk from Rage Against the Machine. He thinks through his drum parts, based on strong, clean, simple phrases and it's all neatly squared off. All that power and groove ... yeah!

It's funny ... in rock I enjoy the music of bands with drummers who play really squared off neatly like that, whereas in jazz and a lot of fusion the group sound seems to work better when drummers' lines seem more randomised, running across the bars and flowing.

Now something i do like doing Polly and you probably share the same enthusiasm is spicing up very simple beats. Standard 4/4. Add an open hi-hat, add some ghost notes. Playing a double on the floor tom after the snare on 3. It's amazing how you can spice up simple drumming without making it too complicated.

How do you feel when it comes to fills? Do you tend to hold back completely or do you tend to use them moderately? I'm intruiged and what sort of fills do you do since you don't use toms? Thanks =)

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by JT1

Now something i do like doing Polly and you probably share the same enthusiasm is spicing up very simple beats. Standard 4/4. Add an open hi-hat, add some ghost notes. Playing a double on the floor tom after the snare on 3. It's amazing how you can spice up simple drumming without making it too complicated.

How do you feel when it comes to fills? Do you tend to hold back completely or do you tend to use them moderately? I'm intruiged and what sort of fills do you do since you don't use toms? Thanks =)

I'm trying to reorganise my playing at the moment and place more emphasis on timing than nuance or variation. The nuances I tend to use would sound cool if I executed them spot on, but too often they distract me a little from the groove and detract from the song. So I'm simplifying to give myself a better chance of executing precisely, of serving the music better.

BTW, I ended up adding one tom; I wanted a deep voice to use apart from the kick.

As for fills, my playing is in a state of flux at the moment; I'm rethinking and rebuilding. Here's a jam we had a while ago.

http://www.sangrea.net/rijidij/mp3/b...ong24sep09.mp3

Totally off the cuff with a few flukes. I'm just holding things down with minor variations and tried to take a compositional approach to the fills. Wish we played the stuff we rehearse over and over as tightly as this - lol

You'll see not a lot of tom tom action in it. However, in Little Wing, I play the 12" tom a fair bit. I could work around it using the kick but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

[dairyairman]

that was nice and tasteful. drums are a little heavy in the mix, but that's typical of single mic recordings in a practice room.

at one point it sounds like you're hitting a small timbale or very high pitched drum. what is that?

[BigSteve]

Hey Pollyanna I enjoyed that. You have a good feel for the music and dynamics. I liked the timbali sounding hits...you don't rush your fills...very nice.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

In the non-pro ranks it not only depends on the music but on capability. Is it better to stay within our ability and play more accurately or to play in a complex manner with sloppiness?

Always better to play what you play best. If a style is a struggle, it's time to woodshed, or just avoid that style. Performing badly is never acceptable. If someone is a beginner and not capable of playing in a band situation, they shouldn't be attempting it. Growth does not occur overnight, or result from just wanting it. Growth is a process, hopefully leading to experience, hopefully leading to opportunities.

In the pro ranks, it's more a matter of taste. If the song gives a lot of people joy then the drumming is effective.

True, but why can't that be the case for all levels of music and performance? Does someone who's not an experienced player go out of their way to play inappropriately simply because they think no one is listening? Well, hopefully not for that reason... I think that players want to play well and improve and show what they know. Of course then it becomes a question of ability to know what the music requires, and that's a sense of reason some players find early on, and others never learn, even after decades behind their instrument.

Bermuda

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Totally off the cuff with a few flukes. I'm just holding things down with minor variations and tried to take a compositional approach to the fills. Wish we played the stuff we rehearse over and over as tightly as this - lol

Nice Polly, real nice. You don't need to be in a state of flux, it sounds great just leaving it right there. Would be groovy to hear you experiment with the snare rim for a bit of extra back beat flavour & dynamic. Rimshots can be delicate as well as cut your head off. In your stuff, they'd just add a sprinkle of latin magic and all without adding a single extra beat.

[stabmasterarson]

I just wanna say

I hate Meg White's drumming. If a 5 year old kid plays better than you, you don't deserve your fame.

Sure, simple is great and often is all that is called for. It just pisses me off that I bust my ass to get better and I can't even shine the shoes of the best drummers out there, but this person doesn't even care about playing well and has actual fans of her drumming.

It's a crazy world.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by stabmasterarson

It just p^%$es me off .

I understand the sentement but please curb your language a little.

[jon e rotten]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

I'm trying to reorganise my playing at the moment and place more emphasis on timing than nuance or variation. The nuances I tend to use would sound cool if I executed them spot on, but too often they distract me a little from the groove and detract from the song. So I'm simplifying to give myself a better chance of executing precisely, of serving the music better.

BTW, I ended up adding one tom; I wanted a deep voice to use apart from the kick.

As for fills, my playing is in a state of flux at the moment; I'm rethinking and rebuilding. Here's a jam we had a while ago.

http://www.sangrea.net/rijidij/mp3/b...ong24sep09.mp3

Totally off the cuff with a few flukes. I'm just holding things down with minor variations and tried to take a compositional approach to the fills. Wish we played the stuff we rehearse over and over as tightly as this - lol

You'll see not a lot of tom tom action in it. However, in Little Wing, I play the 12" tom a fair bit. I could work around it using the kick but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

I'm curious, do you consider that super-simple?

I like where you're going with that. If that's what you consider simple drumming than I think we're on the same page. Laid back, but just enough 'flair' to keep me interested.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by stabmasterarson

I hate Meg White's drumming. If a 5 year old kid plays better than you, you don't deserve your fame. Sure, simple is great and often is all that is called for. It just pisses me off that I bust my ass to get better and I can't even shine the shoes of the best drummers out there, but this person doesn't even care about playing well and has actual fans of her drumming.

It's a crazy world.

People don't get fame because they deserve it, or desire it, or have necessarily worked hard at their instrument to achieve it.

Fame, or success, or whatever goal a musician sets for himself, is likely to come to those who happen to be in the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing. Basically, a lucky break. Obviously there also has to be something worth 'selling', but to get that foot in the door in the first place is typically just by chance.

It may be a crazy world, certainly it's not a fair world, and things don't always happen for the right reasons. But, it is what it is.

But resenting where Meg has landed isn't fair either, and just ends up looking like petty jealousy. I know a lot of pro players, and I assure you there are precious few resentments and jealousies toward other players voiced among them. It's almost as if getting to a certain level makes them more secure about themselves.

I think it also brings a better understanding that success may or may not happen, for various reasons and for no reasons, and it's counterproductive (and really just looks like sour grapes) to brood over someone else's success.

Sorry to preach, but a healthy attitude is just as important as playing well. People are entitled to their opinions, but it doesn't mean they have to speak it.

Bermuda

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by bermuda

I try to play exactly what the music dictates, without trying to make it 'mine' or influence in a way that's distracting or incongruent with rhythms that serve the genre. Unless instructed otherwise, it's not my mission to put a fresh spin on something just because.

Bermuda

This is the mark of a mature, giving musician. When I hire a drummer I do not want that drummer to bring his ego and overbearing attitude and turn the songs into a vehicle for his chops like practice session. Believe me, it has happened and trying to play along with a drummer doing that is a nightmare. Drummers who believe this works are living in cloud cuckoo land. I expect Folly would mention them with praise.

As for someone like Peart? Well his musical situation calls for it. Were he to play that way behind Barbara Streisand, well you can see the end of that situation.

What is most important is the music. First and foremost it is the music. The drumming should compliment the song. Not detract from it and adversly affect it.

Originally Posted by jon e rotten

Peart = 7 Rich = 3 Krupa = 0 Ringo = 10 Moon = 7

I could not disagree more. I do not know anyone outside of a few musicians who have ever heard of Peart.

Everyone knows Ringo. Everyone. Some oldies remember Krupa and Rich. Moon is famous for dying young and living a foolish life.

[donv]

Originally Posted by bermuda

People don't get fame because they deserve it, or desire it, or have necessarily worked hard at their instrument to achieve it.

Bermuda

That's an interesting comment. I agree with you that many have not worked hard at their instrument, but I don't know any that didn't have desire and bust their butts, and often having nothing to do with the music itself, 2 examples I knew from back in high school are Seger and Mitch Ryder. They both worked hard doing the same things yet one made it, and the other didn't. In fact it's kind of a joke around here with Seger when he finally made it big becuase outside of the midwest people thought he was some overnight sensation.

You're absolutely right on about the sour grapes. It always been my contention that at a certain point in talent, personality trumps the talent, and nothing destroys personality more then sour grapes.

[Pollyanna]

Wow, much food for thought. Will break up my answers so it's not War & Peace.

Thanks Dairyman, KIS and Steve, and I agree re: the mix. The drums weren't as dominant in the room mix but those little recorders seem to like drums.

The sound you refer to is a djembe played as (lucky) rimshots. Can't claim credit. I got the idea from Bill Bruford in Sample and Hold off his first solo album, Feels Good To Me. He just went bang-bang-bang on the quarters - simple as can be - and I fell in love with it.

In our jam it's clearly my simplest and best drumming moment. John E, that's pretty well my point. In either Sample and Hold or my jam we could have done 100 more complex things that would have been less effective.

KIS, yeah, I'm in a state of flux and syill unsure of my approach. Prior to that session I was trying to get Paul Thompson's line in Let's Stick Together down. It seems to be simple drumming but it's played with, as Bermuda's feedback put it, economy and authority.

Had I been listening to someone else beforehand I would have played differently in that jam. Playing since 1975 and I am still not much closer to finding my drumming "self" and still get influenced by whomebver I've been recetly listening to.

I think it's an important and rarely-discussed thing - finding out who you are on the drums. That's what gives players the confidence and conviction to play with authority IMO. It's what tells you how YOU approach drumming to any given piece. It's what I achieve only sporadically and am often unsure of what to do. In drumming, tentativeness = death.

I remember partying on post-gig with members of a band that was big-ish in Australia in the 80s. I asked the drummer for advice and his reply was "Play every beat with conviction".

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by donv

That's an interesting comment. I agree with you that many have not worked hard at their instrument, but I don't know any that didn't have desire and bust their butts

I meant that simply having the desire and working hard don't directly bring fame. In other words, some people really feel they deserve it just because they want it so bad.

I love the contestants on American Idol who tell the judges how much they want to win and how strong their desire is. Nothing of course about being a good singer or having a good style... it's all about what they want. And when they invariably don't make it to the next round, they blame Simon or whoever for destroying their dream. I'm guessing most of them never figure it out.

Anyway, kinda the same concept. People don't make it simply because they want to.

Bermuda

[Deathmetalconga]

It is interesting how simplicity and groove are constant and impassioned discussion topics here. Yet the most popular genres of music among members are metal and jazz, which emphasize complexity and/or busyness.

Also, the single most interesting topic in technique and gear is the double pedal, which seems to be antithetical to simplicity.

Country music has very simple, groove-oriented drumming for the most part - and country is much more popular than jazz and metal put together - but I have never met anyone here who calls themself a "country drummer." We say we like groove and simplicity, but our other discussion say different.

What's up with that?

[Pollyanna]

Re: Meg. I used to think like Stabmaster - "Hey, I've practiced my brains out to do all these things and this mug comes along playing simple crap and makes it - not fair!".

It's a natural reaction to feel jealous about someone succeeding more than we are, seemingly without putting in the hard yards. We figure it's hype or superficial factors and forget about our own superficiatility, because in music a focus on technicality is also superficial. It's just one tool.

Being an unsuccessful but accomplished musician is like having a great vocabulary but not being popular. What makes all the difference IMO is having more of an "other focus" than a "self focus". If a drummer has that attitude AND the chops (plus the drive to put up with the industry's demands and foibles and don't suffer bad luck) they will inevitably be in demand.

Originally Posted by bermuda

Always better to play what you play best. If a style is a struggle, it's time to woodshed, or just avoid that style. Performing badly is never acceptable.

It's only taken me 34 years to work that one out :)

Originally Posted by bermuda

True, but why can't that be the case for all levels of music and performance? Does someone who's not an experienced player go out of their way to play inappropriately simply because they think no one is listening?

I'm thinking of a questioning approach like, "Ok, this pattern is obvious. I wonder if something else might be better still?". I'm talking the pro ranks here. For me it's, "What am I capable of playing well that will work?". Pros like you and Wy Yung have more options.

Wy Yung, before I started looking at drum stuff on the web I hadn't heard of Neil Peart. I even had a Rush record in the days of LPs - lol. But I was more into the British prog drummers (and Zappa's guys) and top fusion guys like Cobham and Narada and Chester and Airto etc back then. Neil didn't seem special in that company.

The woman at work had heard of Ringo but wasn't sure if he played drums .... or was it George? If I hadn't lead her with the question she thinks she would have plumped for Ringo. We drummers really are not on many people's radars. DrummerWorld is an alternate universe. It's a magical wonderland for we drumheads but a complete ho-hum for most. DMC, I think that's the deal with jazz and metal being discussed here.

Meg nails it because what she plays sounds good in the music. People who like to focus on drum lines don't like her playing but those who focus on the music and vibe as a total package do.

Sorry about the long posts - I just find the subject matter incredibly interesting.

[RevWrona]

Simple drumming is good, it can compliment the song just fine if it is a good song. The White Stripes is an incalculable phenomenon. There is simple drumming but I think Meg is an awful drummer. I think meg has made drumming take 3 steps back. She has gotten better then she started off as towards the end of her career but the first time I saw her she couldn't do four on the flour. I remember laughing my ass off and I was so distracted by the car wreak behind the drum kit I didn't even notice the singer. I do like Jack's singing, I liked his drumming back when he was with Goober and the Peas and I like his music with the Raconteurs...I would like to rant and type more but I need to get to band practice.

[donv]

Originally Posted by bermuda

I meant that simply having the desire and working hard don't directly bring fame. In other words, some people really feel they deserve it just because they want it so bad.

I love the contestants on American Idol who tell the judges how much they want to win and how strong their desire is. Nothing of course about being a good singer or having a good style... it's all about what they want. And when they invariably don't make it to the next round, they blame Simon or whoever for destroying their dream. I'm guessing most of them never figure it out.

Anyway, kinda the same concept. People don't make it simply because they want to.

Bermuda

I completely agree again. I hope I didn't come across as disagreeing. As I said, I thought your comment was interesting because of how specific you were with the, "or have necessarily worked hard at their instrument to achieve it,". I like and appriciate the comment because imo I've met too many that think working hard at the instrument is enough, and it's not always a good measure

I've also followed this thread with interest while not being sure how to contribute. I can only speak for myself, but in my own playing there is no correlation between simple and complicated in relation to easy and hard. For me, what I'm sure many here consider simple is some of the hardest drumming for me to play. Holding a groove together with all the space that is available with what is usually considered simple is what screws me up more then anything else. Busy, complicated drumming comes easier to me. Hope that makes sense because it's not something I can give a specific explanation about. It is what it is.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

It is interesting how simplicity and groove are constant and impassioned discussion topics here. Yet the most popular genres of music among members are metal and jazz, which emphasize complexity and/or busyness.

Also, the single most interesting topic in technique and gear is the double pedal, which seems to be antithetical to simplicity.

I know that members like to talk about more complex styles, as it feeds their desire to do more complex drumming. In that respect, this forum is not a good real-world barometer of the ratio of drummers enjoying success playing pop & country, vs those having success playing jazz, fusion, speed metal, etc.

It's like going to the bagpipe forum. They talk like it's the most popular instrument in the world, but from the outside looking in, we know that's a skewed perspective.

Bermuda

[TTNW]

Originally Posted by bermuda

It's like going to the bagpipe forum. They talk like it's the most popular instrument in the world, but from the outside looking in, we know that's a skewed perspective.

Bermuda

Excuse me sir! I am a member of all the bagpipe forums and I can attest to the fact that me pipes are the most popular instrument in the world. Old haggis and bollocks to you mate.

[Royal]

Originally Posted by larryace

. Drummers are the lowest member of the food chain,

Maybe we are not all like you.

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by stabmasterarson

I just wanna say

I hate Meg White's drumming. If a 5 year old kid plays better than you, you don't deserve your fame.

Sure, simple is great and often is all that is called for. It just pisses me off that I bust my ass to get better and I can't even shine the shoes of the best drummers out there, but this person doesn't even care about playing well and has actual fans of her drumming.

It's a crazy world.

Perhaps you're busting your butt at the wrong things? Meg's drumming is simple, to the point and works perfectly within the confines of what they're doing musically. It's really not her fault that other people appreciate their art and are willing to pay to purchase it, though you might say they've achieved something incredible: they've managed to create a signal that is readily received by a great number of people and brings them enjoyment and happiness. There is an art in that.

[keep it simple]

Working out to be a great thread this. I have to confess, I find Meg's drumming very bland & lacking any real dynamic, but that's from a drummer's perspective. Although I advocate simplicity, I would never play as simply as Meg, mainly because I'd never play that kind of music. Meg's drumming does fit the song, but even I would like to see a bit more flavour. Not extra stuff, just the basics delivered with more light & shade. Ultimately, mine & most other opinions on this site don't matter one bit as her act is sucessful and most of ours aren't, at least in commercial terms.

I think the original intention was to discuss super simple drumming as opposed to not very good super simple drumming. Getting away from Meg, I totally subscribe to the super simple approach in most genre's but having the disipline to pull it off is a challenge for most, including me. As a rock drummer, I think it's important to really drive the band. That can sometimes mean playing less than totally straight to get some texture into the sound. I'm regarded as a rock player with a slightly funky edge to my playing. I kinda like that tag and often throw in a double where a single would have done the job, or use a splash intro to a crash close. The question is, am I doing that for my own gratification or to enhance the song for a non musician listener? I don't really know the answer to that, and your approach depends on whether you play for commercial gain or personal pride in the achievement.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

I have to confess, I find Meg's drumming very bland & lacking any real dynamic, but that's from a drummer's perspective. Although I advocate simplicity, I would never play as simply as Meg, mainly because I'd never play that kind of music.

Some parts can be bland and serve the music perfectly, just as some parts may be technically amazing and be completely out of place (and just plain wrong) for the music. In Meg's case, you can blame Jack for telling her what to play, although it does fit his songs perfectly IMO.

As for you never playing that kind of music... never ever say never. I'm playing a lot of music I never envisioned myself playing, and my willingness to unlimit myself is the reason I've been able to maintain my primary gig.

Bermuda

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Some parts can be bland and serve the music perfectly, just as some parts may be technically amazing and be completely out of place (and just plain wrong) for the music. In Meg's case, you can blame Jack for telling her what to play, although it does fit his songs perfectly IMO.

As for you never playing that kind of music... never ever say never. I'm playing a lot of music I never envisioned myself playing, and my willingness to unlimit myself is the reason I've been able to maintain my primary gig.

Bermuda

Completely agree my triangular friend. Bland in parts can be perfect but I believe you need a counter to that. If I was playing Meg's part, I probably wouldn't add one extra beat, but I would play with more light & shade. There again, she played to instructions and looked dynamic doing it.

I hear you on the never never thing but I'm in the privileged position of drumming just for fun these days and I don't especially like the genre.

Full respect for your views and significant contribution on this thread. Good to hear it from the sharp end. KIS.

P.S. Hope you got a few extra $'s for the wig as Equity would classify that as acting on top of appearance & playing fees.

[Pollyanna]

LOL "My triangular friend" ... behind that refined and intelligent British demeanour surely lies a drooling madman :)

KIS, I think you might be missing the point with Meg, or maybe that point doesnt hit the spot with you.

De Stijl is the title of The White Stripes's second album and that tells us what they are trying to achieve. Jack and Meg are fans of De Stijl art (try a Google Image search if not you're not familiar with the style). You will see that aesthetic flow through not only their compositions and performance, but also their image - their red and white colour themes, set design, album art, clothes, etc. It's a total aesthetic and the clarity of their vision obviously speaks to a lot of people.

They're also keen on punk/post-punk aesthetics and that tells us something about them. They enjoy being unassuming in the sense that they don't strive to make people go "Oh wow!". They are looking to speak to/with/for their audiences rather than impress them with their wonderfulness. In some ways they are clearly going out of their way to avoid being "impressive". It's a challenge to the human tendency to be bigger, better, stronger, faster, cooler, slicker, classier etc IMO.

MFB made some perceptive comments a while ago about the way visual artists often have an excellent conceptual understanding of music, ie. what aesthetics touch people and the way those aesthetics touch people (he and I were going to PM more about it but I got distracted, having the attention span of a gnat - sorry MFB).

Maybe it's because vision is the most clear sense we have. Many of us are aware that what we leave out is at least as important as what we leave in. Having a clear stylistic vision is all about the boundaries we set ourselves.

Look at Bermuda with Weird Al. They have a clear way of doing things - cherry-picking popular artists in a wide range of styles for their satire. They can't start playing serious numbers because that would dilute their vision. The limits and clarity make the act more effective than if they were less focused and disciplined.

In striving for competence/excellence we drummers often take a bit of an ant's eye view of what music is about. It's easy for us to get so involved in the minutae that we miss the forest for the trees. That's ok because drummers are usually tools which more visionary band members can use to fashion their ideas, and from what I've seen here there are some damn fine "tools" on this forum (I say this in a complimentary sense! :)

Still, it doesn't hurt IMO to step back to take a broader, producer's eye view of things. Chops can be used to expand our range but they can also be one of themore visceral parts of playing music. We often focus on the drumming when we listen to music because that's how we learn, but it's a very narrow way of listening as compared with producers, vocalists and audiences.

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

We say we like groove and simplicity, but our other discussion say different.

What's up with that?

I think some people forget that technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by wy yung

I think some people forget that technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Sadly, most also refuse to accept that the end must also justify the means.

Or like I've been saying, the music dictates what parts work, not the other way around.

Bermuda

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

I would never play as simply as Meg.

What if you were presented with a beautiful piece of music and all that was required was one note at the finale on the bass drum? Would you refuse to do this? Would you recommend another drummer take your place?

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Or like I've been saying, the music dictates what parts work, not the other way around.

Bermuda

Absolutely! I recently had the unenviable job of firing a drummer on a session because he could not hold himself back. At one point I actually said "Leave the Neil Peart shit at the door. Just play the groove!"

He had no idea what I was talking about. I had to quickly jump on and play the groove before our studio time ran out.

Some drummers do not understand their role. "But I just worked out this hyper active syncopated groove. I'm sure it will sound great on this slow love ballad."

Sure mate. NEXT!

[bermuda]

I used to try and talk sense to drummers who were clueless that way, and now I embrace them and let them go on their merry, busy way. They make me look good!

Bermuda

[bobdadruma]

It's not only drummers that try to overcomplicate things sometimes. My band had to give up on a guitar player a few years ago because he would always put a riff or an affect into the mix that didn't belong.
I had to learn the hard way about playing what fits. I went through a period when I was younger where I overplayed myself out of gigs.
I began to play with a Blues band a few years ago. Studying the Blues helped me learn a great deal about keeping it simple and playing with feeling so that the drumming fits.
I'm doing some Contemporary Country music now with my current band and the Blues training has helped me a lot. I like the simple drumming style that supports modern country music. The drumming parts are worked out with a lot of thought in Country music. I soon found out that my Rock and Roll experience wasn't enough to fake my way through a Country song.