The Drum Set As Melody Instrument

bermuda said:
I need to know that there are more than one or two (or even a dozen) influential drummers doing this as a viable method of playing drums - and not just as an occasional/novel solo - in order to concede that there's a trend of any magnitude that deserves special attention.

As I said earlier, I'm not saying that it's not cool or fun or inventive or even compelling. I just fail to see that melodic drumming is "a significant enough musical trend to justify this consideration" ["that the drum set should be reclassified as a "conditionally pitched" percussion instrument."]

Do we argue the point that a piano is actually a percussion instrument, yet it's not regarded or used as such? No, nor does it warrant that discussion.

Sorry Andrew, while it's an interesting concept and cogently presented, melodic drumming is just not broad enough to justify re-examining how the kit is classified.

Bermuda
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Hey Bermuda,

That is a totally valid point. Only time will tell whether melodic drumming starts to become a more significant musical trend or not. Obviously I am hugely biased, and in my tiny musical world, "explicit" melodic drumming is a really dynamic and exciting thing. I wanted to make the argument as strongly as possible that it was worth rethinking the instruments classification mostly just to get dialogue going on this issue, not because I think I've got all the answer!

Todd's point about what I call "implied" melodic drumming is really important as well. Implied melodic drumming (drumming that uses the techniques of melody without going for definite pitches) is tremendously important to the history/development of the drum set as I outline in the article (thanks about the website by the way, Squarespace is great!).
 
haredrums said:
I see your point, but I do think it changes something about the way we think of the instrument and it's potential. Part of the point of the piece is that what we perceive an instrument as being capable of doing at least partially determines what the instrument can do. Although it is obviously ridiculous, thinking of your shoes as melody instruments would certainly change the way you dealt with them, no?
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No.

I do know what you mean, and I agree to a certain extent. But I think it goes the other way around. Thinking of my shoes (or drums) as a melody instrument isn't going to change what I have to express via them.

But what I have to express with drums is certainly going to change the words used to describe them. See what I mean?

It's not words that change minds, it's minds that change words.

If dictionaries were rewrote, and the word happy given the definition of the word sad and vice versa, happy people people wouldn't then become sad.
 
Well if somebody read somewhere that a drum is a "conditionally-pitched instrument" or whatever, might it not tempt them to try tuning both heads to a note?

If some scientists said that happiness was a form of depression then it might bum me out a bit until I figure it out.
 
Notbob said:
Says who? No authoritative source that I have ever seen, whether it comes from physics/mechanics or music, considers a tom to be a definite pitched instrument.



Then you need to do more research. A tom definitely does not produce a spectrum comprised of integer multiples of the fundamental. Period. This is not my opinion, it's demonstrable, objective fact. More on this in a moment.

Second, just because something has a subjective element does not mean that anything goes. The subjective aspects of pitch are reasonably well constrained in the general population. The deviation of pitch from ideal frequency increases as we approach the limits of the human hearing spectrum and with extremes of amplitude. In other words, we're talking about non-linearities in the human auditory system which cause a departure from expected frequency, not in the determination of whether or not something is definitely pitched.



Because those toms aren't really producing a true C, E and G. Let's simplify:

Suppose a play we note on a guitar and the fundamental is 100 Hz. The overtones are harmonic (meaning they are integer multiples of the fundamental). Thus, the string also produces 200 Hz, 300 Hz, 400 Hz, 500 Hz, 600 Hz, etc. (each at different amplitudes and phases which is what makes the timbre we call "guitar"). Further, suppose I play a note that is a perfect fifth above this (like the G above C in the prior example). The perfect fifth above 100 Hz is 150 Hz. It's harmonic overtones will be 300 Hz, 450 Hz, 600 Hz, 750 Hz, etc. Now, note how a portion of these partials are identical to those produced by the original note. That is what we call consonance. Our ear/brain recognizes this and we hear it as sonorous. You play a diminished fifth instead (a tritone) and it doesn't sound consonant (wonderful heavy metal "evil" effect though, look up diabolus in musica).

Now, by comparison, what do we get if we tune a tom's fundamental to 100 Hz? Assuming it has equal tension, the overtones will form an inharmonic sequence of 159 Hz, 214 Hz, 230 Hz, 260 Hz and more. None of these nicely "line up" so it's not perceived as definitely pitched. That is, the overtones don't reinforce the fundamental. Further, if you tuned the fundamental of a second tom to 150 Hz (trying to make a perfect fifth), the overtones of that drum would obey the same inharmonic sequence ratios, thus, when you play them together you get a complete mess instead of a nice chord. (As far as timpani are concerned, you can design a "drum" to accentuate or reduce the influence of certain overtones to get something closer to a harmonic sequence. That's not what regular toms are though, so discussing them is a red herring.)


Beyond this though, I am getting the impression that there is something deeper going on here, and that's a misguided attempt to somehow "elevate" the drum kit, that because it's not definitely pitched, it is somehow inferior to other instruments. I don't agree with that characterization (OK, so that's the first personal opinion I've thrown in here).

Drums are what they are. Don't try to make them into something they're not. They're indefinitely pitched musical instruments.

Stop trying to build a pedestal for them and just play the damn things.
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Hey Notbob,

I think I understand where you are coming from on this, and I am asking you this question with total sincerity. Can you show me (this could be in a private message or email if you prefer) exactly what authoritative sources you are talking about? Specifically I am looking for the science of why a drum can't produce the clear harmonics that you are talking about.

All the research that I have been able to find so far suggests that it is all a matter of degrees, not at all black and white as you are suggesting. In other words, the drum does in fact produce these harmonic overtones, its just that these overtones are complicated by other enharmonic frequencies (that come from the complicated oscillations of a drum head as opposite to the relatively orderly oscillation of a string for example). The degree to which the overtones are clouded by other frequencies has a lot to do with how the drum is made/tuned/played, as KiS was pointing out.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that because of the presence of these enharmonic frequencies, what I would recognize as a C, E, and G are not a true C, E, and G. I would say that they are a C, E, and G, it's just that they are slightly harder to hear.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that the pitch of the drum is exactly like the pitch produced by a violin. That would be absurd. My point is that the drum can and does produce a discernible pitch when played in a particular fashion.

Do you disagree with that?
 
Another complication is the frequencies between the notes. When I tune to root, 5th root, I have no idea if I am sitting on a note or between notes. I'm probably between them. I do have intervals that roughly line up with each other, and each other only, nothing else. So maybe not perfect notes but discernible intervals in relation to themselves. Not necessarily A=440.

Although I believe it is possible to get it tuned close enough to actual notes, that you perceive it as being on the same overall pitch, as a true pitched instrument playing the same "real" note. Kind of tough and I wouldn't want to do it live, but in the studio it's cool to have the toms tuned to the key of the song. As close as you can get them anyway. They sit nice. If you have the time.
 
Notbob said:
You seem to be confusing the concepts of unpitched and indefinitely pitched sounds. A truly unpitched sound is something like a waterfall or a plosive in speech. A standard drum kit tom, though, is indefinitely pitched due to the lack of a true harmonic structure of its overtones, that is, a sequence that is not comprised of integer multiples of the fundamental. You can dance around this all you want but that fact remains. While you can "tune" the fundamentals of three toms to, say, C, E and G, the toms are not sounding these notes in the same manner as a definitely pitched instrument. If you did a roll between the three, it would NOT sound a C major chord. The overtones simply do not match up between the the notes the way they would with definitely pitched sources.

So while you can play drums in a particular sequence of fundamentals, you're really not playing a melody as traditionally defined. You can't harmonize those notes with accompanying chords in any meaningful way.

I find this to be a happy state of affairs. If this was not the case, we'd have to retune our kits every time the band played a song in a different key.

Bottom line, I think "melodic drumming" refers more to a style of playing and shouldn't be taken literally.
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Chords aren't melodies. There are many melodic instruments that don't have a harmonic series as an overtone structure. Ocarinas, kalimbas, marimbas, vibes, steel drums, log drums, gongs, chinese row drums, timpanis, even brass instruments only have a standard harmonic series of tones on some notes. I find ignorance mascarading as fact on this issue naive and deplorable. Furthermore your ultimatum is laughable.
 
haredrums said:
My point is that the drum can and does produce a discernible pitch when played in a particular fashion.
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That's absolutely the case given certain tuning / tensioning, & further evident in some drums more than others. I'm not one for attaching pure science to something subjective, but if you can hear it, then it's there (to you, at least). & just to get slightly sciency for a moment, there isn't an acoustic instrument out there that produces an absolutely pure note. On this planet, pretty much only electronic generation can produce a single frequency, & even acoustic instrument notes that appear pure have harmonic overtones that aren't precisely aligned with the fundamental. To me, it's all a question of degree, application, & appreciation.

I'm not getting into the reclassification thing, because I think that serves little purpose. Additionally, I still think that melodic playing of a drum set is primarily an approach to the instrument, but to suggest that a drum set is incapable of being used convincingly as a melody instrument under all circumstances, is incorrect.
 
larryace said:
Another complication is the frequencies between the notes. When I tune to root, 5th root, I have no idea if I am sitting on a note or between notes. I'm probably between them. I do have intervals that roughly line up with each other, and each other only, nothing else. So maybe not perfect notes but discernible intervals in relation to themselves. Not necessarily A=440.

Although I believe it is possible to get it tuned close enough to actual notes, that you perceive it as being on the same overall pitch, as a true pitched instrument playing the same "real" note. Kind of tough and I wouldn't want to do it live, but in the studio it's cool to have the toms tuned to the key of the song. As close as you can get them anyway. They sit nice. If you have the time.
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At least until the key change ;)
 
Ulysses Owen Jr has a great version of Night in Tunisia and I know there's a guy with a youtube of him playing the melodies of like 20 standards. There's a couple of guys doing it, maybe in 10-20 years this question will be revisited and it'll be a different story...

Also enjoy this video of Ari playing Billie's Bounce because it's freaking nuts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr-d3tO-sXM

All I know is that when Ari plays that little ditty at around 1:11 I can't help but smile and sing along to it...that tends to happen whenever I hear a melody I like, no matter what the instrument.
 
keep it simple said:
I'm not getting into the reclassification thing, because I think that serves little purpose. Additionally, I still think that melodic playing of a drum set is primarily an approach to the instrument, but to suggest that a drum set is incapable of being used convincingly as a melody instrument under all circumstances, is incorrect.
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This ^^^

Completely in agreement with Andy's comment, it sums up the question/topic of this thread beautifully.

The drumset is primarily a percussive instrument, that's the approach that 99% of drummers on the planet use it for.
 
Diet Kirk said:
At least until the key change ;)
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That's what wind chimes are for. I think that is why the author is arguing they be considered conditionally pitched. Since most drummers don't have twelve drums, and even if they did they would probably be spread over several octaves. However, many cultures that have pitched drums, Indian, Chinese, Javan, they don't change keys so much, and when they do they have time to retune the drums or swap out the drums. However, if you are playing a piece with a key change, why not tune some of your drums for one key and some other drums for the other key. Even the most dissimilar diatonic based keys have two overlapping notes. For example the keys Bb a E both have a B and an Eb, the seventh and fourth.
 
haredrums said:
Hey Notbob,

I think I understand where you are coming from on this, and I am asking you this question with total sincerity. Can you show me (this could be in a private message or email if you prefer) exactly what authoritative sources you are talking about?
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Crack open any physics text that discusses vibratory modes of circular membranes. I'm sure you can find something on the net. Wait a sec...

Here. The first one is a decent explanation with minimal math and the second one has some nice animations.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/cirmem.html
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/MembraneCircle/Circle.html
Here's a nice link that explains some of the math and also has some nice animations:
https://readtiger.com/wkp/en/Vibrations_of_a_circular_membrane

I apologize to those I offended in prior commentary but this is a field in which I have considerable formal education and the physics of it doesn't matter whether or not you can play a drum worth a damn. It is what it is. To quote FZ, "A cow don't make ham."
 
Notbob said:
Crack open any physics text that discusses vibratory modes of circular membranes. I'm sure you can find something on the net. Wait a sec...

Here. The first one is a decent explanation with minimal math and the second one has some nice animations.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/cirmem.html
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/MembraneCircle/Circle.html
Here's a nice link that explains some of the math and also has some nice animations:
https://readtiger.com/wkp/en/Vibrations_of_a_circular_membrane
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I dig that you've been trying to say that the timbre of a "circular membraned instrument" is inherently more complex than that of a plucked string. Clearly the implication of that is not what you think it is, since the musicians Andrew cited, and many others who are exploring this area, are able to make recognizable, tonal melodies on the drums.

I apologize to those I offended in prior commentary but this is a field in which I have considerable formal education and the physics of it doesn't matter whether or not you can play a drum worth a damn.
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Yeah, it does matter actually, when your lack of musical knowledge leads you to say things like this, which is contradicted by things known by people who actually play:

Notbob said:
Says who? No authoritative source that I have ever seen, whether it comes from physics/mechanics or music, considers a tom to be a definite pitched instrument.
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It doesn't matter what they say. There are people in the field making a pitched instrument out of them, at least in a limited way. So your sources are out of date and worthless.

You continue:

Beyond this though, I am getting the impression that there is something deeper going on here, and that's a misguided attempt to somehow "elevate" the drum kit, that because it's not definitely pitched, it is somehow inferior to other instruments. I don't agree with that characterization (OK, so that's the first personal opinion I've thrown in here).

Drums are what they are. Don't try to make them into something they're not. They're indefinitely pitched musical instruments.

Stop trying to build a pedestal for them and just play the damn things.
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You're totally out of your depth here. This is the problem with people like you: you know a lot about a very narrow area of theory, and you think it qualifies you to opine on what musicians should or should not do, and other things about which you know next to nothing.

Sorry to be a jerk, but when you take this tone of condescension with professional musicians, while trying to impose your faulty conclusions, of course you're going to get that.
 
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toddbishop said:
It doesn't matter what they say. There are people in the field making a pitched instrument out of them, at least in a limited way. So your sources are out of date and worthless.
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And that's an important qualifier. I never said it was impossible to do that. In fact, I specifically pointed out that one can remove overtones through the design and playing technique of the drum (e.g., timpani) but the initial point as I understood it, was asking whether a drum kit in general should be reclassified as a melodic instrument. My answer is that, no, drum kits in general should not be reclassified as such because they don't produce definite pitches. I provided my reasons and appropriate evidence. You then decide to move the goal posts.

In closing, I had a conversation on this very topic with a friend who is a professional keyboardist (prior to the existence of this thread, not because of it) and he laughed out loud at the thought of a drum kit being considered a melodic instrument. From his perspective as someone who plays a truly pitched instrument, that idea is literally laughable. I think that's a bit harsh but I can see where he's coming from. Yes, there are other perspectives on this. More than you might think. In any event, I've clearly wasted enough of everyone's time on this by going against the grain. Cheers,
 
Notbob said:
And that's an important qualifier. I never said it was impossible to do that. In fact, I specifically pointed out that one can remove overtones through the design and playing technique of the drum (e.g., timpani) but the initial point as I understood it, was asking whether a drum kit in general should be reclassified as a melodic instrument. My answer is that, no, drum kits in general should not be reclassified as such because they don't produce definite pitches. I provided my reasons and appropriate evidence. You then decide to move the goal posts.

In closing, I had a conversation on this very topic with a friend who is a professional keyboardist (prior to the existence of this thread, not because of it) and he laughed out loud at the thought of a drum kit being considered a melodic instrument. From his perspective as someone who plays a truly pitched instrument, that idea is literally laughable. I think that's a bit harsh but I can see where he's coming from. Yes, there are other perspectives on this. More than you might think. In any event, I've clearly wasted enough of everyone's time on this by going against the grain. Cheers,
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Tell your keyboardist buddy to try the concert tom setting. Talk about an instrument that doesn't even begin to produce a harmonic series. I know let's play major chord with a Z wave.

Anyway I think many drummers aren't aware what pitches their drums are producing, are they better for it? and can the casual listener tell?

Furthermore, I played with a Chinese community Orchestra, they had paigu(pentatonic ally tuned row drums), dagu(big kettle drums), flower pot drums, etc.. For one piece they needed more drums, so they tuned up some floor toms. While we practicing the conductor stopped the band and came over and showed me which toms corresponded to the melody lines in their notation and told me to play them, because they had tuned the toms to specific notes. It was a wonderful experience!
 
Not trying to hijack this thread but I mentioned earlier my bad habit of playing melody on drums-what you shouldn't do. I happen to note this video of me playing along with the Sirius radio-just reacting to the music. Note my kick is basically following the melody. That's just wrong and a dang bad habit. I would kick me out of the band for that crap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gQh8kqeX7s
 
GetAgrippa said:
Not trying to hijack this thread but I mentioned earlier my bad habit of playing melody on drums-what you shouldn't do. I happen to note this video of me playing along with the Sirius radio-just reacting to the music. Note my kick is basically following the melody. That's just wrong and a dang bad habit. I would kick me out of the band for that crap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gQh8kqeX7s
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I don't see the problem. One thing I've learned by reading musician forums is musicians are way too uptight. If your playing is solid and is complimentary on any level to another musician, you've done the right thing.
 
The Sloth said:
I don't see the problem. One thing I've learned by reading musician forums is musicians are way too uptight. If your playing is solid and is complimentary on any level to another musician, you've done the right thing.
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I don't see the problem either, because he has the rhythm part covered. I'm assuming all the tapped notes are what GetAgrippa is calling the melodic part, but that's great because the groove is covered. As long as the groove is percolating underneath, melodic stuff works great, for me anyway. I have a harder time when the groove is abandoned for the melody. I have a tough time doing both at once. This illustrates to me that not everyone thinks of melodic drumming in the same way. I was expecting something a little harder to follow. That was totally easy to follow.
 
Notbob said:
... drum kits in general should not be reclassified as such because they don't produce definite pitches...
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They shouldn't be reclassified as melodic because they don't produce overtones that are harmonic partials.
The overtones are somewhat chaotic, but more so in cymbals.

I don't think that was the issue though.
Drums can and do produce a prominent fundamental frequency that a person can hear, despite the overtones.
That fundamental can be tuned to different pitches on different drums.
With a collection of drums with different fundamental pitches, it's possible to play a melody.


.
 
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My first exposure to a melodic approach was as a kid listening to Ginger Baker. Later I was introduced to Max, and certainly Tony's approach to melody was unique. I heard Jeff Hamilton play Night in Tunisia and mesmerize me. Back in the 70s I saw a guy playing a huge set of hand drums and he played the William Tell overture. Bozzio and other large set-up players are mentioned. I was not aware of Ari Hoenig. Delightful. When the Saints go Marchin in. Very cool.

If the issue is reclassifying because of what the instrument CAN do that does have merit. If classification generalizes what is generally done with the instrument the classification will stay what it is.
 
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