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  #1  
Old 08-08-2014, 12:06 PM
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Default Professional responsibility

Morning gang, I couldn't think of a better title so it's not another pro rant!!!

I'm filming videos for my local drum store to try and increase their web presence and also my own 'brand' for want of a better term. I'm doing it with 3 other teachers from the local area and sitting chatting to them I noticed something very very odd.

None of them had done any research or had any prior knowledge of the other guys on YouTube and the net. None of them knew who Mike Johnston is. No one knew drumeo or any of the other decent YouTube teachers.

They seemed very disconnected from the world that we are trying to enter into.

To me it's basic market research and despite being sent links they hadn't checked them out to see the vibe and ideas we want to put across.

Took me a little by surprise as to the how in their own bubble they were.

So my question is should teachers ,especially, be aware of new market changes, new drummers, new books and DVD's and media that come out (one didn't know about Hudson Digital Downloads and when i told him about it he said that sounds like a great idea!)
in order to keep themselves relevant and up to date?


just a thought.

D
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

It strikes me that in any other sphere, keeping up with developments/trends/new material would be termed "continuing professional development". The clue is probably in the name. In my day, when I was a schoolteacher, I would attend further training sessions at least once a month and these were always well-attended, even by the most experienced teachers.

It doesn't mean that any teacher should jump on the nearest bandwagon, or that they should necessarily make any changes at all to what they do and how they do it, but it makes sense - to my way of thinking at least - to be aware of the bigger picture, and I would have thought that most would be keen to find ways to make their job easier.

Out of interest, what is the demographic of these other guys?
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Hey magenta, few i'm not alone in this thinking!!

Age wise they are all 40 or there abouts and all in settled teaching jobs in schools or colleges.

Still i think (especially the college aspect) they should be up to date with new bands and drummers who their students are into.


Dave
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

It's shocking how out of touch they are.

I understand it. It's comfortable to have a pedagogy which works for you and your students. But new stuff comes out all the time. Staying connected means you hear about it. If something hits your radar that works better than what you've been doing, you switch. You at least try it.

Every professional needs to stay current on the state of the art in his profession, lest the profession pass him by. It's true in rocket science, teaching (whether privately or in a structured group setting), hell, even in my profession (brewing)!

I may be speaking out of turn here, but in my opinion if you don't stay awake and aware of what's going on in your profession, you can hardly call yourself a professional.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Maybe they "have been there done that". And don't feel the need to check out the newer stuff.

There isn't that much new anyway. "Gospel chops" is linear drumming and one could do lots of stuff, if not all the stuff with a couple of older books:)
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:41 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
Maybe they "have been there done that". And don't feel the need to check out the newer stuff.

There isn't that much new anyway. "Gospel chops" is linear drumming and one could do lots of stuff, if not all the stuff with a couple of older books:)
Nothing new under the sun at all.

It's not the concepts it's the players, leading lights in online things. NOne of them know about subscription based websites or any trends in the market currently.

It's one thing to not teach the latest book or whatever it's another to be totally unaware of it

D
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Yes. I think it's important as a teacher who is teaching a wide array of age ranges and styles to stay current with methods and players within the style they target to teach.

Speaking from experience - I'm a dinosaur from not doing this from a teaching perspective. I'm out of touch with many current methods, techniques and styles. No one knows this better than me which is why I've pretty much have stopped teaching altogether.

Since I don't do this for a living, I also don't have to care.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

There's really nothing wrong with the tried and true pedagogy. Where do you think these new guys got their info from ? The tried and true methods. As for not knowing some of these Youtube teachers you're referring to, so what. If a guy has a full studio of students why does he care how a guy is teaching on youtube. Not if he's a teacher worth paying he shouldn't. The best teachers are not found on youtube or through websites. You study with a teacher to study to learn from them.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
There's really nothing wrong with the tried and true pedagogy. Where do you think these new guys got their info from ? The tried and true methods. As for not knowing some of these Youtube teachers you're referring to, so what. If a guy has a full studio of students why does he care how a guy is teaching on youtube. Not if he's a teacher worth paying he shouldn't. The best teachers are not found on youtube or through websites. You study with a teacher to study to learn from them.
Agree unless......they are recording videos for YouTube and have been asked to check out links and see what others are doing.

Would be like me starting a drum shop and not knowing about new brands.

D
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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I may be speaking out of turn here, but in my opinion if you don't stay awake and aware of what's going on in your profession, you can hardly call yourself a professional.
Spot on. Staying abreast of current developments is part of being a professional. How professional is a doctor if they never pick up any of the literature once they get out of med school? Heck, many of the tools used in my field didn't even exist when I was in college.

OTOH, I am not a believer in change for the sake of change. Some people jump on every latest fad and gadget whether or not it's good, simply because it's new. Not a fan of that. In this instance, if you're going to do a video for a drum web presence, it seems strange to me that the people involved wouldn't be curious to see what's already out there. You're just setting yourself up to look incompetent if you're unaware. I mean, you and your students might be happy with whatever system you're using currently, but you should at least be familiar with the other stuff, at the very least, know that it exists!
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

it is our responsibility not only as educators but as professional musicians to have our finger on the pulse of what is happening in our field ...
... this doesn't mean we have to like all of it or any of it for that matter....but not being aware is completely irresponsible

in todays market ... an educator that out of touch will absolutely be left in the dust

there is a whole new breed of music educators right now .... and those old stale, stubborn, out of touch , outdated codgers need to either smell the pot roast or get out of our kitchen Dave

you and I are nurturing the next generation
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Old 08-08-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
... in todays market ... an educator that out of touch will absolutely be left in the dust
Completely agree.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that things seem to be moving at warp speed in terms of new approaches, etc.... That probably has to do with more on-line presence and awareness than ever before as well.

I feel as if I'd be doing any student a disservice at this point by taking them on with the method I'd apply. So, I don't do it. I recommend them to others instead of wasting their time and money.

Lastly, I'd like to follow up by saying that ironically I was thinking of this very thing this morning before I stumbled on this thread - not from a teacher perspective - but from a student perspective.

I've had the privilege to have studied with some amazing people. I do know for a fact though, a couple of these people never "budged" from their angle or even widened their listening to things much beyond what influenced them (jazz from the 20's - 60').

I then studied with a professor who was more up-to-date (still in the same style) and it was totally refreshing and could not of more emphasized the fact that the former teachers were very entrenched in their paradigm.

Not that their paradigm is invalid or inappropriate - but it was obviously missing some of the evolution of the music and more specifically the instrument.

Someday I hope to be able to get back to that one professor when I am able to commit to the time demands he rightfully requires. I'm not in that position now, but I sure wish I was.

As a lifetime student - I want to work for and give my money to the person who is indeed aware of the evolution, can explain and teach it.
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Completely agree.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that things seem to be moving at warp speed in terms of new approaches, etc.... That probably has to do with more on-line presence and awareness than ever before as well.

I feel as if I'd be doing any student a disservice at this point by taking them on with the method I'd apply. So, I don't do it. I recommend them to others instead of wasting their time and money.

Lastly, I'd like to follow up by saying that ironically I was thinking of this very thing this morning before I stumbled on this thread - not from a teacher perspective - but from a student perspective.

I've had the privilege to have studied with some amazing people. I do know for a fact though, a couple of these people never "budged" from their angle or even widened their listening to things much beyond what influenced them (jazz from the 20's - 60').

I then studied with a professor who was more up-to-date (still in the same style) and it was totally refreshing and could not of more emphasized the fact that the former teachers were very entrenched in their paradigm.

Not that their paradigm is invalid or inappropriate - but it was obviously missing some of the evolution of the music and more specifically the instrument.

Someday I hope to be able to get back to that one professor when I am able to commit to the time demands he rightfully requires. I'm not in that position now, but I sure wish I was.

As a lifetime student - I want to work for and give my money to the person who is indeed aware of the evolution, can explain and teach it.
great post Dave

it got me thinking about a few things

one being studying with Elvin .... pretty intensely from 96 to 99.... then periodically from 99 til he passed

as we know... Elvin wasn't really a "teacher" ... he was more of a mentor or some sort of guru sort of spiritually guiding
to me he was way ahead of the curve and I stole so many of his tactics

he was all about... the music the music the music.... F everything else ... play the music ... F books ... stop thinking about technique... if you are making the music sound good then you are using proper technique .. stop trying to name it ... get in the vein ... get in the vein of the music!!!!

that was all such an amazing breath of fresh air to me... but a breath that came in the form of a 150 mph wind ... I mean my hair was blown back .

he wasn't about... ok here's how you do it.... he was more about.... you know how to do it already, its in you... just do it!!!
he was about listening ... hey you hear that ?.... you hear what he just did?.... why do you think he did that ?
....or.... what did you feel when you heard that ?
... or..... he would play something for me and say .... do what I just did but do it how you would do it

he didn't mean to play what he played.... he meant harness the same bull he just roped but do it as yourself ...

that stuff is amazing to me

unless my student is like 8 or under.... I refuse to spoon feed them... I don't think hand holding helps anyone

Elvin would always tell me... you already know what to do , you are only questioning it because you are not confident in it because you are afraid what I will think of it

.... and he was 100% right

he used to tell me about how Monk would teach....he said Monk would not speak during lessons ..... at all.... he would play then get up from the piano and motion his hand toward the stool for the student to play what he played.... if the student did something unsatisfactory to Monk he would make them get up and sit down and play it again ....
he said that Monk would do this to force them to pay attention .... to force them to teach themselves via observation .... they both believed that proper observation was the best teacher

these tactics not only build aware musicians but they build character and confidence

spoon feeding information has never helped anyone in the long run ... and I felt that many of my teachers would use words like "wrong" and "incorrect" and try to spoon feed me these minute details that I can honestly say did not help me one bit

a really good teacher guides you to eventually be able to develop your own ideas .... develop your inner teacher by trusting your instincts ..... like sort of a self feeding machine

learning an instrument is about 1% physical and 110% mental

sorry for the novel

Last edited by WhoIsTony?; 08-08-2014 at 04:31 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-08-2014, 04:41 PM
FrontierGibberish FrontierGibberish is offline
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Excellent topic -

I have noticed that my teacher has a general disdain for things I bring him from the internet - very similar to how my doctor reacts when I go see him with an elbow injury that I have diagnosed myself via WebMD...

JM
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

If a drummer can play drums well that is good enough for me.
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

We're living in a neat age.

With the internet, new drummers are attaining an incredible degree of virtuosity at a speed that us old times find astounding. As some have pointed put, the purpose of in-person instruction has changed a bit.

Musical instruction in my youth was more of an academic exercise. I had a guitar teacher with a curriculum and lesson plans that would make me play parts to a metronome and chart my progress to make sure I did my homework. To quote the teenage me, "It sucked". When I wanted to learn a part, there was no youtube. Almost everything was done by ear, as sheet music can only give you the timing and notation. Picking and other complexities had to be reverse engineered.

Today, my drum instructor is more of a mentor, guide, and coach. When it came time to fix my flams, he made sure my stick control was right, and gave me direction, and then had me work off of the internet for the next two weeks. Why have one teacher when you can have seven different teachers, and seven different perspectives, and a single mentor to help you filter out the BS from the gems. Either way, I think it's wonderful that he embraces the net, and I'm glad I can now properly play "My Sharona".
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Maybe those teachers should spend some time in forums like this, where information is shared to the nth degree. At almost 58, and a long way from taking lessons, there's no reason I would need to know about Drumeo or Cobus, etc. But, I do, and that's thanks to the folks here.

As soon as others start knowing more than I do, I'm out of a job. So, I keep my ear to the ground, and my eye to the screen, just to keep up.

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Old 08-08-2014, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

It is good to be "Up to date" but if there is a great teacher/mentor who specialises in teaching beginners and giving them the basics and the fundamentals of drumming in a way thats easy to understand, who motivates and inspires there students, then why change? The student, after exhausting all that teacher can give them, can then move on to another teacher that majors in the next step they want to take.
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Old 08-08-2014, 07:46 PM
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It is good to be "Up to date" but if there is a great teacher/mentor who specialises in teaching beginners and giving them the basics and the fundamentals of drumming in a way thats easy to understand, who motivates and inspires there students, then why change?
I don't think it's a question of the teachers needing to know in order to teach, it's a question of them knowing what's going on in the drumming world and what their students may be exposed to.

It's like me knowing about blast beats. I can't do them, I can't imagine being asked to do them, I don't necessarily listen to music with them... but I know about what they are. And really, that's the extent for me. But, at least I know, and that adds to my knowledge of my chosen career.

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Old 08-08-2014, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Weird that this came up because I was just watching this video the other day and it deals with a lot of Daves questions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q81ZHLHDrQ


A few points from it, Igoe thinks that it's pointless teaching students stuff like snare drum solos if they won't actually have any real world need for it. He's glad to teach it if they do need that skill. He also says if teachers aren't using video technology with their students they are "dinosaurs".
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Old 08-08-2014, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I don't think it's a question of the teachers needing to know in order to teach, it's a question of them knowing what's going on in the drumming world and what their students may be exposed to.

It's like me knowing about blast beats. I can't do them, I can't imagine being asked to do them, I don't necessarily listen to music with them... but I know about what they are. And really, that's the extent for me. But, at least I know, and that adds to my knowledge of my chosen career.

Bermuda
I am with you all the way. But what I meant was that no one knows everything about there chosen profession, no matter how long they have been doing it, and learning to teach "everything" would be impossible. You would spend all your time learning new stuff and leave yourself with no time to teach.
If anyone can spend hours every night watching YouTube because there might be something new on there, and there will be, I'll hazard a guess they will be single, and for a good reason.

Do what you do best seems to be a sensible way to go. If, for sake of argument, you are a great Jazz teacher and students seek you out, and your diary is full, why spend time seeking out new developments in death metal drumming just so you can say "Yes I am aware of that"?
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:03 PM
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I am with you all the way. But what I meant was that no one knows everything about there chosen profession, no matter how long they have been doing it, and learning to teach "everything" would be impossible. You would spend all your time learning new stuff and leave yourself with no time to teach.
Nobody has to know everything, but they should strive to know the things that touch on what they do, or may even be detrimental to their livelihood. For a teacher today - young or old - to not know that there are online sources for learning and potentially replacing them, is inexcusable.

It's a bit like the drum machine scare of the early '80s when (supposed) professional drummers sat around crying about how machines were going to replace them. I heard that, and bought a machine! (Yamaha RX-11, $795 back in 1985, and almost as good as the free apps you get today!)

Quote:
If, for sake of argument, you are a great Jazz teacher and students seek you out, and your diary is full, why spend time seeking out new developments in death metal drumming just so you can say "Yes I am aware of that"?
As a teacher, you need to be up on teaching, and how learning is changing. While it may not be important to teach jazz by knowing that kids are learning metal online, it's important to know that they may also be learning jazz online, and how such developments may affect private lessons.

Does a Chrysler salesman know anything about GM products? Ford? Toyota? Honda? You bet he does, if he's a pro!

Bermuda
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Nobody has to know everything, but they should strive to know the things that touch on what they do, or may even be detrimental to their livelihood. For a teacher today - young or old - to not know that there are online sources for learning and potentially replacing them, is inexcusable.

It's a bit like the drum machine scare of the early '80s when (supposed) professional drummers sat around crying about how machines were going to replace them. I heard that, and bought a machine! (Yamaha RX-11, $795 back in 1985, and almost as good as the free apps you get today!)



As a teacher, you need to be up on teaching, and how learning is changing. While it may not be important to teach jazz by knowing that kids are learning metal online, it's important to know that they may also be learning jazz online, and how such developments may affect private lessons.

Does a Chrysler salesman know anything about GM products? Ford? Toyota? Honda? You bet he does, if he's a pro!

Bermuda
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
To me it's basic market research and despite being sent links they hadn't checked them out to see the vibe and ideas we want to put across.
Wow, it's one thing to have one's head um....in the sand about web pedagogy in general, but when you all are trying to expand your marketing into a new (to them) medium and they can't even be bothered to check out the links you took the trouble to find and send out......

If it were me, I would be wondering whether these people needed to be involved at all. It doesn't sound as if they are interested in capitalizing on the exposure. Can you play the various styles that they teach?

They are not doing you a favor by grudgingly participating. They sound like millstones.

I'd be inclined to put the camera on a tripod and let rip. If the issue is that the store wanted ALL of its instructors to be included....perhaps some encouragement from higher up the management food chain is called for.

Would it be possible for you to just do your own videos and then mention at the end that if the viewer would like instruction from you to contact the store?

(this frustration with others' lack of motivation is why I recoil from the idea of being in a band these days:-)
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Starship Krupa View Post
Wow, it's one thing to have one's head um....in the sand about web pedagogy in general, but when you all are trying to expand your marketing into a new (to them) medium and they can't even be bothered to check out the links you took the trouble to find and send out......

If it were me, I would be wondering whether these people needed to be involved at all. It doesn't sound as if they are interested in capitalizing on the exposure. Can you play the various styles that they teach?

They are not doing you a favor by grudgingly participating. They sound like millstones.

I'd be inclined to put the camera on a tripod and let rip. If the issue is that the store wanted ALL of its instructors to be included....perhaps some encouragement from higher up the management food chain is called for.

Would it be possible for you to just do your own videos and then mention at the end that if the viewer would like instruction from you to contact the store?

(this frustration with others' lack of motivation is why I recoil from the idea of being in a band these days:-)
Excellent points mate. The videos are off the back of the drum store so here's the drum stores online lessons ...just so happens to be with me.

In terms of food chain.....it has already been discussed. I'm not in charge it's the consultant who was brought in and he an i have discussed this already. He thinks there will be drop outs because of the work load so we shall see.

D
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Nobody has to know everything, but they should strive to know the things that touch on what they do, or may even be detrimental to their livelihood. For a teacher today - young or old - to not know that there are online sources for learning and potentially replacing them, is inexcusable.

It's a bit like the drum machine scare of the early '80s when (supposed) professional drummers sat around crying about how machines were going to replace them. I heard that, and bought a machine! (Yamaha RX-11, $795 back in 1985, and almost as good as the free apps you get today!)



As a teacher, you need to be up on teaching, and how learning is changing. While it may not be important to teach jazz by knowing that kids are learning metal online, it's important to know that they may also be learning jazz online, and how such developments may affect private lessons.

Does a Chrysler salesman know anything about GM products? Ford? Toyota? Honda? You bet he does, if he's a pro!

Bermuda
You are suggesting there are people out there who are not aware of the internet or that there are videos and lessons on line?
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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You are suggesting there are people out there who are not aware of the internet or that there are videos and lessons on line?
He's suggesting that there are a lot of drummers out there that aren't aware of online resources.
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  #28  
Old 08-09-2014, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

While there have been some very interesting and informative posts, there is an elephant in the room: guys were given links to look at as part of their preparation, but didn't do so.

That's no different to turning up at a rehearsal without having learnt the material.

At best it's lazy and likely way worse than that.
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Old 08-09-2014, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
While there have been some very interesting and informative posts, there is an elephant in the room: guys were given links to look at as part of their preparation, but didn't do so.

That's no different to turning up at a rehearsal without having learnt the material.

At best it's lazy and likely way worse than that.
Hear flippin' hear.

I don't own/run the shop where they teach, and I don't know the UK's labor laws. But that kind of blithe indifference is a fire offense in my book.
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Old 08-09-2014, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
great post Dave

it got me thinking about a few things

one being studying with Elvin .... pretty intensely from 96 to 99.... then periodically from 99 til he passed

as we know... Elvin wasn't really a "teacher" ... he was more of a mentor or some sort of guru sort of spiritually guiding
to me he was way ahead of the curve and I stole so many of his tactics

he was all about... the music the music the music.... F everything else ... play the music ... F books ... stop thinking about technique... if you are making the music sound good then you are using proper technique .. stop trying to name it ... get in the vein ... get in the vein of the music!!!!

that was all such an amazing breath of fresh air to me... but a breath that came in the form of a 150 mph wind ... I mean my hair was blown back .

he wasn't about... ok here's how you do it.... he was more about.... you know how to do it already, its in you... just do it!!!
he was about listening ... hey you hear that ?.... you hear what he just did?.... why do you think he did that ?
....or.... what did you feel when you heard that ?
... or..... he would play something for me and say .... do what I just did but do it how you would do it

he didn't mean to play what he played.... he meant harness the same bull he just roped but do it as yourself ...

that stuff is amazing to me

unless my student is like 8 or under.... I refuse to spoon feed them... I don't think hand holding helps anyone

Elvin would always tell me... you already know what to do , you are only questioning it because you are not confident in it because you are afraid what I will think of it

.... and he was 100% right

he used to tell me about how Monk would teach....he said Monk would not speak during lessons ..... at all.... he would play then get up from the piano and motion his hand toward the stool for the student to play what he played.... if the student did something unsatisfactory to Monk he would make them get up and sit down and play it again ....
he said that Monk would do this to force them to pay attention .... to force them to teach themselves via observation .... they both believed that proper observation was the best teacher

these tactics not only build aware musicians but they build character and confidence

spoon feeding information has never helped anyone in the long run ... and I felt that many of my teachers would use words like "wrong" and "incorrect" and try to spoon feed me these minute details that I can honestly say did not help me one bit

a really good teacher guides you to eventually be able to develop your own ideas .... develop your inner teacher by trusting your instincts ..... like sort of a self feeding machine

learning an instrument is about 1% physical and 110% mental

sorry for the novel
Thank you for sharing these unique experiences with us. Not sure anyone else can do that on here.

There's so much of this I can relate to - the good and the not so good. As a former teacher and as a student.

Especially this part....

"spoon feeding information has never helped anyone in the long run ... and I felt that many of my teachers would use words like "wrong" and "incorrect" and try to spoon feed me these minute details that I can honestly say did not help me one bit

a really good teacher guides you to eventually be able to develop your own ideas .... develop your inner teacher by trusting your instincts ..... like sort of a self feeding machine"
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:47 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
You are suggesting there are people out there who are not aware of the internet or that there are videos and lessons on line?
In the first post, Dave Major said this about three other drum teachers:

"None of them had done any research or had any prior knowledge of the other guys on YouTube and the net. None of them knew who Mike Johnston is. No one knew drumeo or any of the other decent YouTube teachers.

They seemed very disconnected from the world that we are trying to enter into."

So, yes, there are apparently some who don't know what's going on. After 20+ years of the proliferation of the Internet, I can't understand how they could not know something so closely related to what they do, when it's so easy to explore. It's not a large commitment, a few evenings surfing the 'net would yield a plethora of information.

The title of this thread is "Professional responsibility" and I agree that it includes not only knowing what you're doing, but knowing what others are doing. A teacher sitting one-on-one with a student needs to know that other teachers are doing it differently. It may or may not have an effect on their methods, but it will broaden their horizons.

As I said in my analogy, a Chrysler salesman also needs to know GM, Ford, etc etc. in order to be a professional salesman.

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Old 08-09-2014, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

As a teacher i find myself falling back most often on tried and true pedagogy. It worked for me and most of my students had never picked up sticks before so i feel they are in need of it. Online lessons can be very useful and i've used them myself but i only used them after i'd been taking lessons for a decade and had a thorough enough understanding of playing and technique that i could properly absorb the material from a video. This is why i don't use videos with my students. My job is to get them to the point where the videos will be useful to them. In person i can give them the realtime feedback that they will need for the beginning of their journey. I can correct grip, have them count out parts etc as they make the inevitable mistakes and i let them know where they are going wrong. I'm convinced that they would not know they were going wrong if they were to rely only on vids at this stage in their development. My 2 cents. I should mention that i'm 27 so i'm still feeling my way through this and reserve the right to refine my ideas and change my mind entirely if experience proves me wrong.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmacc View Post
Thank you for sharing these unique experiences with us. Not sure anyone else can do that on here.

There's so much of this I can relate to - the good and the not so good. As a former teacher and as a student.

Especially this part....

"spoon feeding information has never helped anyone in the long run ... and I felt that many of my teachers would use words like "wrong" and "incorrect" and try to spoon feed me these minute details that I can honestly say did not help me one bit

a really good teacher guides you to eventually be able to develop your own ideas .... develop your inner teacher by trusting your instincts ..... like sort of a self feeding machine"


Spot on, my point entirely. "Great" teachers, of anything, are well aware thy dont know all there is to know. They are, for want of a better description, "A people person" they empathize with students and simply nudge students in the right direction. They instill in people a love of drumming and almost a sense of "Hey, I can do this, I have talent, what else could I play?"
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Old 08-11-2014, 02:04 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

I think Professional responsibility is the main reason why I don't teach. Although I feel like I can be a good teacher because I teach AutoCad pretty well, and I am a very patient person. I've never taken lessons, nor have I studied any books in depth except Stick Control and a little Hands, Grooves and Fills. I really couldn't teach technique either. Nobody has ever critiqued my technique or sticking. My rudiment skills are lacking too. All in all, I feel confident that I can teach a beginner or novice drummer to drum, but I also feel like I would have a professional responsibility to teach them correctly with proper technique via tried and true methods of which I've never been taught. That being said, I would have to take lessons and research the skill of teaching, and I think the online teaching thing is a skill that needs to be developed also. They should definitely do their research into online teaching instead of just going at it all willy-nilly.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:56 AM
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Road Bull Road Bull is offline
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Aldo, not all people get the new world of the interwebs. This could be people that are just aloof, or Luddite hold outs. For instance, the only reason I finally caved in and got a myface account on spacebook is that it helps to communicte with my band and keep track if shows.

So every once in a while someone decides to jump on this crazy internet thing and see what its all about. They might be trying their hand at drumming up e-business. So they might just see it as an alternative to other ways to pump up business, who knows.

But I don't think these shallow enders do much in the way to see what's out there before they jump in.
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
I'm not in charge it's the consultant who was brought in and he an i have discussed this already. He thinks there will be drop outs because of the work load so we shall see.
D
Ah, I see, you were just trying to help them prepare? Frustrating.

Sounds like the consultant has a handle on it: let attrition take care of the ones who can't be bothered. Especially if they don't see the value in it, they will be less likely to put in the work to make it happen.

You've probably done as much as you can to help inform your colleagues. Above and beyond the call, as they say. Out of your hands now.

I hope your videos turn out great and bring you lots of business!
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

The last time I took a lesson was in 2009 or 2010, and my drum instructor mentioned Mike Johnston and spoke very highly of him. I think this was before his career "breakout". I had just recently heard of him, myself. I thought that was cool, given that I could have more easily gone to Mike for online lessons, and that he was aware of him to begin with.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Enjoyable thread, some great posts.

Just wondering, is it "professional responsibility" to stay up-to-date if you are working for yourself? I would think it more a matter of strategy (or sometimes, a lack).

Some businesses specialise in retro furnishings, clothes, accessories, music and so on - so why not some retro teachers and musicians? It's just a matter of whether they can attract enough students and if the instructor has the expertise to be useful and engaging to students.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
Morning gang, I couldn't think of a better title so it's not another pro rant!!!

I'm filming videos for my local drum store to try and increase their web presence and also my own 'brand' for want of a better term. I'm doing it with 3 other teachers from the local area and sitting chatting to them I noticed something very very odd.

None of them had done any research or had any prior knowledge of the other guys on YouTube and the net. None of them knew who Mike Johnston is. No one knew drumeo or any of the other decent YouTube teachers.

They seemed very disconnected from the world that we are trying to enter into.

To me it's basic market research and despite being sent links they hadn't checked them out to see the vibe and ideas we want to put across.

Took me a little by surprise as to the how in their own bubble they were.

So my question is should teachers ,especially, be aware of new market changes, new drummers, new books and DVD's and media that come out (one didn't know about Hudson Digital Downloads and when i told him about it he said that sounds like a great idea!)
in order to keep themselves relevant and up to date?


just a thought.

D
As with any endeavor, I would have to answer this with a firm "perhaps".

Sure, I think you should be aware of others that are out there, but last time I checked, there's almost a limitless supply of teachers and teaching products out on the internet(s). You could spend years sifting through information, couldn't you? And then there are those pro drummers out there doing the same thing - remember that on-line drum school where you were almost one-on-one with guys like Billy Cobham and Thomas Lang? I forget the name but I haven't heard about it in a while.

Sometimes having a Youtube channel to display who you are and what you do is good enough to get the word out to prospective students, and then how you teach them and what you teach them should be the important thing that keeps them coming back and referring other students. I'm kinda' old skool in this regard - every time I've seen the new technology utilized, the ones who do it best are the ones who can afford other people to do it for them (kinda' like moderating this forum ;). I myself don't take lessons on line. If I want to take a lesson, I'm on the phone for a one-on-one with any of the great teachers in my area, that were recommended to me by other drummers/students whom opinion I trust.

I like the internet, but for certain things, like teaching, I'm not sure it's a great substitute for being able to give someone like Danny Seraphine a $100 to pick his brain for an hour.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Professional responsibility

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Just wondering, is it "professional responsibility" to stay up-to-date if you are working for yourself? I would think it more a matter of strategy (or sometimes, a lack).
Yes. In exactly the same way as it behooves any other professional to stay current. It's not as critical as a doctor staying current, of course. No one is going to die because you don't know who Jared Falk is. ;-)

A professional is supposed to be into his field. He should be sufficiently interested in the field of music education to know there are drum teaching opportunities on the web, fer Crissake.

Similarly, if you're not an idiot, you should be perpetually on the lookout for ways to make your professional life easier. You should be looking for new tools or techniques which let you more easily or efficiently perform the task for which you're being paid.

Finally, if you're working out of last generation's books, making students tap on a practice pad, for example, how can you teach a student who comes in looking to learn a more recent technical innovation? If you can't, you're throwing away business because you can't be arsed to keep current. I don't call that very professional.

It's not professional to let your profession pass you by. Doesn't matter if you're self-employed or working for someone else.
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