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  #1  
Old 02-17-2014, 04:39 AM
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Default I'm getting into this now

So, a few days ago I saw this George Kollias video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqzZmNqdWck

And now, it's official. I'm into it. I have never really seen this kind of playing and never really listened to this kind of music, but I thought it would do me good if I at least checked it out. I'll probably never be able to play like that, but I'm gonna give it a go. I just bought his instructional DVD Intense Metal Drumming II and may eventually get that double pedal to try all that stuff out. But right now it looks humanly impossible to me, so I'm gonna give it a shot.

I need to grow my hair out too.
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Old 02-17-2014, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Bwa ha ha ha - this I gotta' see.

Go for it man.



Edit - honest opinion. While i understand the amount of work it takes to get good at that style, it has about as much appeal to me as rap music does - zilch.
Sparse, speedy licks applied in a tasteful manner is one thing.
All out, non-stop top speed blasting is just tiring to hear.

.

Last edited by wildbill; 02-17-2014 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
Bwa ha ha ha - this I gotta' see.

Go for it man.



Edit - honest opinion. While i understand the amount of work it takes to get good at that style, it has about as much appeal to me as rap music does - zilch.
Sparse, speedy licks applied in a tasteful manner is one thing.
All out, non-stop top speed blasting is just tiring to hear.

.
Yeah, I get that. I just feel I should be at least familiar with it when I meet youngsters who are into it. I try not to just discount things off hand and the physical ability to do that I can appreciate. I'm really interested in how he does it. It's a very different mind-set compared to my Bonham mindset where I want a bass drum note to last at least four counts ;)
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Welcome to the dark side Bo!

I'd also suggest some Opeth for double bass practice. Blackwater Park and Ghost Reveries really helped me work on my pedal work. There's some fast stuff that I still struggle with, but a lot of it is more mid tempo with a groovier feel. But have fun man, that's what matters!
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:00 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Originally Posted by CreeplyTuna View Post
Welcome to the dark side Bo!

I'd also suggest some Opeth for double bass practice. Blackwater Park and Ghost Reveries really helped me work on my pedal work. There's some fast stuff that I still struggle with, but a lot of it is more mid tempo with a groovier feel. But have fun man, that's what matters!
Definitely looks like fun. Although I don't have a double pedal yet, I'll be checking it out for now. I had no idea George Kollias is such a big deal that Axis makes his signature pedals. Whoda thunk? I guess he's like Michael Phelps in the water.

Although I haven't looked into Derek Roddy yet, I've seen Gene Hoglan play on YouTube and that stuff is pretty intricate too. After seeing the Aristocrats, I really like Marco Minneman's playing as well - although that trio is so progressive, they can't really be categorized.

I love what I do, but I also like to keep up with these new developments to stay current on what's possible with a drumset. But I'm sure my primary job is always going to be bass drum on 1 & 3, and snare on 2 & 4!
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

I've been working on this stuff for yrs. and nowhere close to those guys. To me it's no different than what I see some of the Jazz guys doing with their hands, only with their feet. I can't do either. I find it amazing.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:00 AM
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I've been working on this stuff for yrs. and nowhere close to those guys. To me it's no different than what I see some of the Jazz guys doing with their hands, only with their feet. I can't do either. I find it amazing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not even thinking that I could pick it up just like that and be happy. Anytime I see incredible playing, I know there's a lifetime of work behind it. I may never get it once I start trying. My thing is in the trying. Then I can at least say I checked it out and can say for sure that I can't do it. It's just dang impressive, and being a jazz guy, there's alot of things I can't do with my hands too!
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Old 02-17-2014, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Better get those pedals and get to work - ha ha. Maybe you'll like it.
I've made fair progress since I started with them.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Definitely looks like fun. Although I don't have a double pedal yet, I'll be checking it out for now. I had no idea George Kollias is such a big deal that Axis makes his signature pedals. Whoda thunk? I guess he's like Michael Phelps in the water.

Although I haven't looked into Derek Roddy yet, I've seen Gene Hoglan play on YouTube and that stuff is pretty intricate too. After seeing the Aristocrats, I really like Marco Minneman's playing as well - although that trio is so progressive, they can't really be categorized.

I love what I do, but I also like to keep up with these new developments to stay current on what's possible with a drumset. But I'm sure my primary job is always going to be bass drum on 1 & 3, and snare on 2 & 4!

Yep, it's just now you will be putting a bazillion notes in between. ; )
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:51 AM
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Yep, it's just now you will be putting a bazillion notes in between. ; )
Haha. Too bad I don't get paid by the note ;)
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Well, today I received my two DVD set of George Kollias' Intense Metal Drumming II. I will be immersing myself shortly. I'm still on the fence about getting that double pedal, because I know I'll never use it on a gig, but you never know ;) Stay tuned!
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Another possible convert! As CreeplyTuna said, welcome to the dark side!

It really isn't as difficult as it looks Bo. It is more speed than anything. Start doing rudiments with your feet while playing time with your hands and you are on your way. No double pedal required yet. With all your playing experience you shouldn't have much trouble making the transition.

To see the ultimate culmination of speed and technicality, check out John Longstreth. The man is a drumming wizard. He doesn't play drums, he sits down and they play themselves.

Anyhow, enjoy your new journey and good luck!
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Personally, I am having one hell of a time with double bass. I think the biggest problem was I was practicing without a click at first and although my sustained singles were coming along okay, my shorter patterns were not being played evenly and I developed a bad habit of uneven short patterns. I also screwed up because a lot of my practice was just with a set of double pedals I had set up under my computer desk, and I wasn't incorporating my hands.

I realized it when I tried to play "Kill the King" by Megadeth. It sounded easy and I could easily play sustained singles at a much faster speeds, but when I tried to play along to the song it became painfully obvious that it was very uneven.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Technically impressive. Musically...kind of boring.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Technically impressive. Musically...kind of boring.
It's all about the vocal delivery ;)
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Originally Posted by RIneuron View Post
Technically impressive. Musically...kind of boring.

I can only listen to that kind of stuff for about 30 seconds - max.

I can practice with a double pedal and quiet trigger pad for hours though - go figure. LOL
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Well, today I received my two DVD set of George Kollias' Intense Metal Drumming II. I will be immersing myself shortly. I'm still on the fence about getting that double pedal, because I know I'll never use it on a gig, but you never know ;) Stay tuned!
I definatly prefer roddy, although kollias is a close second.

You don't really need his dvd's at all to be honest.
To get control you can knock yourself out with the single stroke pages of stick control on feet.
10 minute freefall is the second thing to focus on & then you're off to speedo land.

hope you're enjoying torturing yourself on a daily basis as much as i am currently lol
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

It's a fascinating area of study. I was a single-pedal Bonham devotee for years before suddenly having to play all this stuff, so I totally get where you're coming from. You may start looking at certain things in an entirely new way.
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

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It's all about the vocal delivery ;)
Oh yes, we all love Cookie Monster.

Bo, I've been playing metal forever and keeping the double bass going at age 46 is a challenge. If you want to start on this now be prepared for a physical commitment. The legs and hips need to be worked with exercise and stretching for me to be able to hit 220. (But I don't play death metal so most of my stuff is around 180-200.)

As far as how these guys developed their speed. It's NOT from doing things like Stick Control exercises or working on their weak limb. It's all about developing a strong lead limb (like your right foot for example) and then getting the weaker limb to follow. George goes into this in detail in his second vid.

We are talking singles here at one dynamic level done at blazing speed. That is the essence of death metal. You'd be surprised at how many metal guys can play fast singles but can't play a double stroke roll.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:08 PM
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Bo, take a look at Alex Rudinger, Dirk Verbueren, Peter Wildoer, Sean Reinert, Lyle Cooper...... These guys aren't reaching Kollias speeds, but are playing blazingly fast and with what some would consider a little bit more musicality. I second Jeff's suggestion on learning fast and consistent double bass stuff. I usually set my metronome to my desired tempo and accent one of the 16th notes. I make sure that my dominant foot lands consistently on that accent while trying to follow best I can with my weak foot. For me, I've found that stick control exercises really benefit playing broken patterns more so than straight 16th/32nd notes. I also agree that at 46 it can take a toll on the hip and groin area depending on what method your using. Also take a look at Devon Townsends post Strapping Young Lad stuff. It's a nice combination of death metal, straight ahead rock and elements of pop with, imo, fantastic vocals. Good luck in your journey!
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:39 PM
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Bo, take a look at Alex Rudinger, Dirk Verbueren, Peter Wildoer, Sean Reinert, Lyle Cooper...... These guys aren't reaching Kollias speeds, but are playing blazingly fast and with what some would consider a little bit more musicality. I second Jeff's suggestion on learning fast and consistent double bass stuff. I usually set my metronome to my desired tempo and accent one of the 16th notes. I make sure that my dominant foot lands consistently on that accent while trying to follow best I can with my weak foot. For me, I've found that stick control exercises really benefit playing broken patterns more so than straight 16th/32nd notes. I also agree that at 46 it can take a toll on the hip and groin area depending on what method your using. Also take a look at Devon Townsends post Strapping Young Lad stuff. It's a nice combination of death metal, straight ahead rock and elements of pop with, imo, fantastic vocals. Good luck in your journey!
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

So, let me get this straight. The object is to make as much noise as possible?
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:45 PM
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So, let me get this straight. The object is to make as much noise as possible?

NO, you are dead wrong. The object is to play as FAST as possible. The noise is just a fortuitous byproduct of the speed.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:35 PM
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His playing is truly amazing.

You must also purchase a copy of Tim Watterson's DVD if you are going to get serious about bringing your foot speed to that level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQjFF-sJASs

I rate it 10/10. The best material for foot technique, hands down.

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Old 03-10-2014, 03:12 PM
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Kolias is a very fine player. He's really heavily into funk music. Loves Garibaldi. He teaches at the con in Athens. He's got a job in a metal band and kills it. He wants a student of mine to visit him at the con and take some classes.

He did a clinic here in Sydney and some guy asked him a Portnoy question. Kolias told him to ask Portnoy himself at a Portnoy clinic. This is a Kolias clinic.

Classic. :-)
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:34 PM
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I too wouldn't pay a nickel to listen to that type of drumming. UNTIL I went to a Derek Roddy clinic here in town. I took no attitude in the door and walked out having been schooled and appreciative of the style. I'm not ready to go and buy every metal record on the shelf but I just let myself be immersed into the style for an evening and walked away better educated than when I walked in the door. Bo I say give it a try. It won't cause any pain and you've nothing to lose.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:46 PM
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Man that is some unbelievable action on that double bass-weird twisting move. I note a lot of the blasters and speed guys hold their sticks on the ends, rather near the fulcrum. I have to admit I'm not into the music so much but I love this type of high energy drumming-like a hummingbird. I remember a movie years ago that had a bar scene with this jazz drummer who was just a blur-very similar.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:09 PM
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I too wouldn't pay a nickel to listen to that type of drumming. UNTIL I went to a Derek Roddy clinic here in town. I took no attitude in the door and walked out having been schooled and appreciative of the style. I'm not ready to go and buy every metal record on the shelf but I just let myself be immersed into the style for an evening and walked away better educated than when I walked in the door. Bo I say give it a try. It won't cause any pain and you've nothing to lose.
This is the attitude I want to convey. I know I'll never play the stuff, but it's impressive and I think we should check out everything with open minds. It can't hurt to look into it ;)
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I too wouldn't pay a nickel to listen to that type of drumming. UNTIL I went to a Derek Roddy clinic here in town. I took no attitude in the door and walked out having been schooled and appreciative of the style. I'm not ready to go and buy every metal record on the shelf but I just let myself be immersed into the style for an evening and walked away better educated than when I walked in the door. Bo I say give it a try. It won't cause any pain and you've nothing to lose.
WOW, I can't say thank you enough for those words. That's exactly what I've been trying to get across to players who don't listen or play this style of "music". So glad you walked away with a positive vibe toward what we do.


Bo, if you ever want to discuss some of this stuff, feel free to reach out to me.

As someone who's been playing this style of music since it's beginnings...it's so odd to see people still viewing it as something "new" to learn about. Haha. Tickles me to death. LoL.

It's very easy to see how that happened though. My book was the first Extreme Metal (death metal, etc....whatever you want to call it) educational piece where drummers could see notations of the blast beats. There where guys playing it (including myself) for 20 years before I wrote "The Evolutions of blast Beats" in 2006 and, I never understood why there wasn't a book out. That it took 20 years after the fact.

I gave online lessons on my website in the early 2000's about all this stuff but, it wasn't until the book came out that drummers outside our small circle started to appreciate what was going on with our music.

It's just cool to still see drummers getting into it.

Thanks! Haha.


D
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:29 PM
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Bo,

I think what you're doing is cool. And like anything else, you'll be able to find a happy medium or 'hybrid style' of playing from understanding many genres, and I think you will be successful with it.

I've been stuck between two worlds for many years (I'm 46) - one is like Clyde Stubblefield, Garibaldi (Tower of Power), R&B, Hard Rock type playing and the other is Pantera, Lamb of God, some Symphonic metal (with click tracks and orchestration). I do recording and live work for both situations and drawing routines from both sides has helped me make playing either genre interesting and fun for the people I play with. Actually Gene Hoglan is a great example - he started out as a Funk drummer, now he's the master of metal masters :) Check out the song 'Love' by 'Strapping Young Lad' - amazing work.

When practicing on the double pedal, I suggest you keep your Bonham power and dynamics, but make the patterns interesting (or even swing when you can:)), but for your own sake, play against a click when you do it. When I do my daily rudiments, I set the click starting at 140 and make it interesting (rudiments with hands, steady 16ths and pattern 32nds with feet),alternate triplets and quarters, then change it to 150 BPM's and work on the same thing, and then finally at 160 BPM's when I'm totally warmed up, but at that speed I concentrate on playing at full power, and something simple, even a simple 16th note BD typical metal beat. I don't do blasts, not my thing.

I can't get past 170 BPM without losing power, but I like to keep it that way - every hit is heel up, leg up - full leg movement - no ankles or 'dancing' on the pedals - I'm not knocking it, it's just that I don't use triggers. The original drummer from "The Number 12 Looks like You" (http://www.thenumber12.ning.com/) Jon Karel actually stated this on his Tama Iron Cobra endorsement promo videos - great drummer.

Best of luck,

Joe
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:10 AM
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Thanks Derek and Joseph! I may reach out for advice in the future. But for most of my life I've been on this 'grooving 4-piece drumset' journey and I've been very happy with it. But unless I get into some ethnic things, there's very little left in American popular music that just turns me on like when I was 8 years old listening to James Brown for the first time (that was 40 years ago now - wow). So please understand I'm just as surprised at myself for 'discovering' this metal blast beat music. Still not too enamoured with the vocal delivery, but I guess that's why you won't hear Sex Pistols or Oingo Boingo being covered at a wedding either.

Before I reach out to anybody, I'll see how far I take it on my own. Right now I've just ordered my double pedal from Pearl so once I get it, I'll start fiddling around. I've experimented with double bass in the past, I just never looked at any methodologies or thought about getting a book that explains it. This is probably the biggest difference this time around ;)
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:23 PM
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Thanks Derek and Joseph! I may reach out for advice in the future. But for most of my life I've been on this 'grooving 4-piece drumset' journey and I've been very happy with it. But unless I get into some ethnic things, there's very little left in American popular music that just turns me on like when I was 8 years old listening to James Brown for the first time (that was 40 years ago now - wow). So please understand I'm just as surprised at myself for 'discovering' this metal blast beat music. Still not too enamoured with the vocal delivery, but I guess that's why you won't hear Sex Pistols or Oingo Boingo being covered at a wedding either.

Before I reach out to anybody, I'll see how far I take it on my own. Right now I've just ordered my double pedal from Pearl so once I get it, I'll start fiddling around. I've experimented with double bass in the past, I just never looked at any methodologies or thought about getting a book that explains it. This is probably the biggest difference this time around ;)
Bo, there are a number of metal bands out there with a more, lets say, acceptable vocal delivery.

The heavy vocals isn't to everyone's taste. In fact many die hard metal fans often hate specific bands purely because they just don't get the vocals. Its a very marmite genre of music.

Its been debunked as not a real genre, I won't go into the long laborious tale here, but check out some bands that come under the "Djent" label. Many of these bands have clean vocals, with soaring choruses and exactly the kind of technical double kick stuff that grooves in a way that a non metal fan can really understand and get into.
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:35 PM
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Rock on Bo.
Although, I wasn't thinking on a technique level but, more of a terms level. Where this stuff came from and who were the bands (and drummers) that influenced change over the course of the evolution of the music, etc. Anything you want to know....reach out.


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Still not too enamoured with the vocal delivery,
This is the reason I started my Serpents Rise band. No vocals so, you can clearly hear what the music is trying to say.

If you'd like a copy of any of that stuff....I'll be happy to send it to ya.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3McT...1TRAb8SKv4s9Ww

D
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Old 03-11-2014, 03:34 PM
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Wow! Only just stumbled across this thread for the first time Bo. Good luck with emulating this vibe with a 4 piece kit & one crash & ride ;)

Seriously though, appreciation is a great thing. Wether you use it of not, having mastered some of the skills & gaining insight into the musical choices carries forwards into other playing styles.

As Ben says, working from a classic background of playing the spaces into making sure there's almost no spaces is quite a mindset hill to climb, & I'm going to draw a parallel here with Derek & Ben. When I hear Ben's playing in Gloryhammer, there's some good old open rock sensibility creeping into his metal playing. In lots of areas, but specifically in his use of classic single pedal bass note placement mixed in with the almost mandatory double stuff. It works IMHO, & works well. Then there's Derek. An absolute master of his high profile genre, but get him outside of that, & he can funk/groove/improv with the best of them. I hear some of that rounded approach sneaking into his metal playing, & in Jeff's playing too. Not sure if Derek realises that or not.

Either way, what you're embarking on can only have a positive spin IMO. TBH, I wish I had the time to do something similar, except it wouldn't be metal.
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:17 PM
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Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Thanks Derek and Diet! I will definitely check that stuff out and reach out if necessary!
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:27 PM
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JosephDAqui JosephDAqui is offline
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
Bo, there are a number of metal bands out there with a more, lets say, acceptable vocal delivery.

The heavy vocals isn't to everyone's taste. In fact many die hard metal fans often hate specific bands purely because they just don't get the vocals. Its a very marmite genre of music.

Its been debunked as not a real genre, I won't go into the long laborious tale here, but check out some bands that come under the "Djent" label. Many of these bands have clean vocals, with soaring choruses and exactly the kind of technical double kick stuff that grooves in a way that a non metal fan can really understand and get into.
In adding to these wise words, you should check out the following AMAZING bands:

Animals as Leaders
Chimp Spanner
Cloudkicker (one guy)
Uneven Structure
Tesseract
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:43 PM
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Derek Roddy Derek Roddy is offline
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Here's something for you guys to check out and, I feel it's a necessity for understanding and making sense of all the notes going by.

http://derekroddy.com/Dereks_Link_Folder/Seminole1.mov

I haven't heard any of my peers mention this at all.

Maybe they haven't thought about it this way but, It's been a very important way of thinking for me to play all these notes and, have the listener understand what's going on... to give a little "feel" to all these notes.

It'll make a lot more sense after watching the video.

John....you're in this one. haha.

D
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

I am 50 now, I doubt I will find a bunch of young punters who will want me in their band, but I have been working hard on my double bass chops for a couple years now. If anything, it is a great cardio program before I go to work in the morning. I am only now getting confident enough where I am holding a steady RL group of in five on the bottom and I truly feel and know where my hands are in relation to the feet. For the longest time, I could not differentiate if I was connecting right or left. It is a process, a long process, but to me, a whole lot more fun than a lot of other styles.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:52 AM
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That's what I'm hearing in your playing Derek. Thanks for laying that bare :)

Jon, you're standing there like Derek owes you $100 ;) ;) ;)
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:21 AM
Jaakkima Jaakkima is offline
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Default Re: I'm getting into this now

Hey Bo, how has this new discovery and interest in this kind of playing been so far? Are you still practicing this stuff and did you get that double pedal?

I got inspired by your thread and new found enthusiasm and started getting into this myself. I got a double pedal already in 2012 but never practiced much until very recently when I finally decided that I need to have some double bass skills in my arsenal as well. It was just tough to get the practice routine started when all other areas of my playing all light years ahead of using both feet on the kick. But I swallowed my pride and started working on it.

Then I saw this thread and as result I'm also now practicing my blast beats and singles around the kit every day, and I have to say that it is becoming highly addictive to me. Never knew that such a sports-like approach to drumming would be so appealing to me, but there's something so fascinating about the fact that my speed, power and stamina are increasing so rapidly, and it's so easy to track the progress and see the results. Who knows, maybe I'll secure some work with some metal band in the near future if I can keep this up for a while - that would something new to me :)

Also bought Derek Roddy's blast beat DVD and have to say that I'm very impressed. The DVD definitely delivers and Derek has become such a versatile and skilled drummer - who would've believed 10 years ago when his first blast videos went viral on the internet? This is like completely different artist behind the kit and needless to say, the DVD contains a large amount of useful material for anyone interested in this kind of drumming.

Now if I could only find some music that includes this kind of drumming but isn't ruined by the vocals... I just can't stand the death metal stuff and the growling vocals that sound only comical and annoying to me. Ideally, I'm looking for something where the vocals are done in the same way as Chuck Schuldiner used to approach them with Death, especially on the albums Human, Individual Thought Patterns and Symbolic. Been a huge fan of those records (as well as Hoglan and Reinert) for years - that's the kind of aggressiveness and power I'm looking for as far as composition and the approach to vocals go. All suggestions are welcome!
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