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  #1  
Old 06-16-2013, 06:09 PM
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Default In defence of multiple toms.

There's been a lot of talk here over the years about 4 piece kits (& less) being all that's needed to get the job done. In most cases I agree. There's even a train of thinking that to use anything bigger than a 4 piece somehow shows a lack of skill & inventiveness, & that such kits are often a crutch of sorts. As a drummer of limited ability, I agree that to be the case sometimes, & has certainly applied to myself in the past.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. Now, I like a 4 piece as much as anyone & I use a 4 piece for rehearsal most of the time, but my gigging kit is a 6 piece. Put simply, it's what I believe is right for my gig, & more importantly, it's what the band feel is right, & have said so quite firmly.

So, I looked back over some drumcam footage of last night's gig. Just out of curiosity, how much do I actually use 3 or 4 toms in sequence. I was surprised just how much I do use those toms. OK, there are some bits that could be accommodated on two toms. I know this, because I transpose this myself in rehearsal, but there's no doubt that it takes away from the melodic flavour. I counted at least 20 occasions in a two hour set where I use 3 or 4 toms in sequence, & another 20 occasions were I use a range of toms but individually according to the pitch I think fits best.

Now, of course, this is dictated largely by the type of music I play, & our band's interpretation of that material. I've concluded that my current setup for this band is the right choice. I'm now satisfied that my gigging kit is not a crutch, & there is a time & place where using a larger set is an appropriate musical choice.

Anyhow, here's some examples I pulled off the camera from last night in support of my claim ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbE4r...=youtu.be&hd=1


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  #2  
Old 06-16-2013, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I agree Andy. The type and quantity of the drums that a drummer plays has nothing to do with their creativity. In fact, I don't consider a 6 pc kit large.

I end up playing most gigs here in NYC on a house 4 pc. That's because that's what's there and as a long-time working drummer, I could do it all on kick, snare and hat if I needed to. It does not make me better to play on a 4 pc. I guess it could help someone focus on their groove more but I have spent years on just that so I'm not distrtacted by more toms.

Many of my favorite contemporary drummers (Simon Phillips, Danny Carey, Carter Beauford, Mike Mangini, Steve Smith) play larger kits anyway. Is any big-kit basher going to tell me that those guys are copping out by playing a large kit?

Just make great music and all criticisms will be moot. No?
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

If you're just focused on "transposing" your exact fills and grooves to a smaller kit, you're missing out on what some of us like about smaller kits. When there's less parts, I feel more inclined to be creative with the whole kit. I use other things besides toms, more bass drum, or rims or part of the fill on the hats, that could go on forever, that that's the great part about it.

That's also another reason I tend not to have "specific" fills. If I always just do what feels and sounds cool at the time, I'm always being creative and never have to transpose anything, because it's always coming from my creative center. Realistically, I have to do some things the same way every time, but different house kits is an excellent example of a reason why I don't really need to do the exact same fill in the same space each time.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post


Just make great music and all criticisms will be moot. No?
Sums it up for me Jeff :

BTW, how are you feeling mate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
If you're just focused on "transposing" your exact fills and grooves to a smaller kit, you're missing out on what some of us like about smaller kits.
Good point. I didn't mean to necessarily focus on that. The only transposing I do is related to "signature" fills that need to take the same form, & yes, I deploy different elements of the kit to do that.

Another point, this thread is not in any way an attempt to diminish the benefits of additional creativity/inventiveness afforded by extracting pleasing results from less drums. That's been discussed here many times. I'm just balancing the frequently voiced support for 4 piece playing being somehow the superior expression of our craft. I'm also offering my somewhat simplistic & mostly under qualified position into the mix, & posting some clips I extracted in the process of my own personal position evaluation.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

For me the size of the kit is a very important thing. I have nothing against a small kit, and I have no bias towards a large kit. That being said, I for one believe that kit size has a tendency to dictate the style of playing I will be doing. By no means am I going to sit at a 4 piece kit and try to play some speed metal, or am I going to sit behind Derek Roddys kit (I wish) and play some swing. Each kit to me seems to have its own personality, its own musical needs to meet. I have sat behind a 4 piece kit with just hats and a ride, and a massive 11 piece with more cymbals than I could count. Did I play the same styles with these 2 kits? HELL NO! I played what I felt was appropriate for the tools I was given.

I like the simplicity of a small kit, but I like the sound options of a large kit. I've had both, and they both had their advantages and disadvantages. But they both suited my needs for what was required, and that's what is important in my opinion.

My next kit will probably be a midsized one, six piece with enough cymbals to fill my needs without being over the top. I feel this is a nice happy medium, and should fill any playing requirements I may find myself with.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I sort of relate it to a painter, an artist. I realize the main colors in the spectrum or a rainbow, and realize a painter can mix colors to make a third color but that can't be done with drums. IMO creativity is limited with fewer toms. If you can create on two toms, then why can you create more on three or four toms. To say that someone can be , or has to be more creative on a four piece set is not true in my opinion. I can be a lot more creative with a closet full of clothes than I can be with 2 black shirts and two pair of jeans. The analogy may not be the best, but if the thinking is that drummers with four piece sets are more creative, then I think the thinking is flawed. Just as why most people have multiple cymbals.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I completely agree. The number of toms really does not effect how good or creative a drummer is. Music is about freedom, so why should a drummer who loves his instrument have to be limited as to how many toms he can play? Personally, I have tried many different sizes of drum kits... 4 piece... 3 piece... 5,6,7,8,12, you name it.

I've even played gigs with nothing but a snare drum and a bass drum. But that is beside the point. I believe that if you are going to at least use the entire drum kit a little bit, then you may use how ever many toms you want. Although a lot of drummers say that a 4 piece makes you a more creative drummer, just because a drummer uses 3 or more toms does not make him lazy. A drummer should use how ever many toms he feels he will use, but not more than that. Personally I believe the 4 piece is definitely the most EFFICIENT of drum kits, but certainly not anymore "creative" and "innovative" than any other size drum set.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I have a 6 piece kit and I most often choose not to use it for gigs.
I see no point in hauling all of that extra gear for no real reason.
I watched your video and I didn't see anything that you did that couldn't have been done on a 4 piece. Just as you stated that you practice with a 4 piece with no problem.
If the gig is high paying and the stage is large I consider bringing out a 6 piece kit.
It simply isn't worth it for me to transport and set up a 6 piece kit for a $75 to $120 pay.
I bring the minimum amount of gear to 99.9% of the gigs that I play.
There is nothing wrong or right about the amount of drums that a drummer chooses to bring to a gig.
So there is no reason to defend the amount of gear that a drummer uses.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

My only issue with this Bob is that "hauling all of that extra gear" "for nothing".
First one or two toms isn't hauling or all that extra gear. And as for nothing, well obviously it's for additional voices or sounds, so hardly for nothing.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
If the gig is high paying and the stage is large I consider bringing out a 6 piece kit.
It simply isn't worth it for me to transport and set up a 6 piece kit for a $75 to $120 pay.
Then why do you even have a 6 piece kit? Seems kinda rockstar to me to let the amount of money you are going to make determine the size kit you use. Doesn't the music and the audience deserve your full effort (includes kit transport, set up, and tear down) everytime you play, regardless of pay?
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
There's been a lot of talk here over the years about 4 piece kits (& less) being all that's needed to get the job done. In most cases I agree. There's even a train of thinking that to use anything bigger than a 4 piece somehow shows a lack of skill & inventiveness, & that such kits are often a crutch of sorts. As a drummer of limited ability, I agree that to be the case sometimes, & has certainly applied to myself in the past.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. Now, I like a 4 piece as much as anyone & I use a 4 piece for rehearsal most of the time, but my gigging kit is a 6 piece. Put simply, it's what I believe is right for my gig, & more importantly, it's what the band feel is right, & have said so quite firmly.

So, I looked back over some drumcam footage of last night's gig. Just out of curiosity, how much do I actually use 3 or 4 toms in sequence. I was surprised just how much I do use those toms. OK, there are some bits that could be accommodated on two toms. I know this, because I transpose this myself in rehearsal, but there's no doubt that it takes away from the melodic flavour. I counted at least 20 occasions in a two hour set where I use 3 or 4 toms in sequence, & another 20 occasions were I use a range of toms but individually according to the pitch I think fits best.

Now, of course, this is dictated largely by the type of music I play, & our band's interpretation of that material. I've concluded that my current setup for this band is the right choice. I'm now satisfied that my gigging kit is not a crutch, & there is a time & place where using a larger set is an appropriate musical choice.

Anyhow, here's some examples I pulled off the camera from last night in support of my claim ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbE4r...=youtu.be&hd=1


.
This has really been bugging you, eh?

So you're really the only guy here who uses more than two toms and freely admits to using windchimes. This sounds like a personal issue ;)
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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This has really been bugging you, eh?

So you're really the only guy here who uses more than two toms and freely admits to using windchimes. This sounds like a personal issue ;)
I have four toms at times and made my own chimes. bell chimes not wind chimes.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Not crazy about a 4 piece. I need that 2nd rack. But if I sat at a set with 5 toms, I don't think I would change my style of play for them. The way I look at it...I only have 2 hands, so no matter how many toms are there, I can only hit 2 at a time. So 3 is plenty. And with linear patterns using the kick, a small kit can sound huge. I only have a problem with big kits when the player is clearly using them as a form of compensation for a lack of ability. Then it's a little pathetic.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I have 5 toms and have been known to use all of them too, although 4 is more normal for me. I make no apologies for not having a traditional 1 up one down kit, in fact I get fed up looking at them- everyone seems to have one these days. I blame Britpop! I did try stripping down my setup- this was suggested by the rest of the band, but within 2 gigs they wanted the big kit again as they like the variation in sound. No Andy, have 4 toms and be proud. there are lots of things that don't need 4 toms to play, but if you've got them, why not flaunt them. I didn't spend all that money to have them stacked in the corner! I am a polytom and I don't care who knows it.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

You're always downplaying your drumming skills, but I think your fills are freaking awesome. You know how to use those drums effectively. Besides, how can you do that flam fill in "Jump" without that 8 and 10? No, stick with the formula.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
My only issue with this Bob is that "hauling all of that extra gear" "for nothing".
First one or two toms isn't hauling or all that extra gear. And as for nothing, well obviously it's for additional voices or sounds, so hardly for nothing.
My 6 piece kit uses two toms to the left of the bass drum on a heavy stand and two suspended floor toms on a heavy stand.
It adds a about 50 LBS to my load. It takes more time to set up, tear down and transport.
I don't see the need to lug the extra stuff for most gigs that I play.
The audience doesn't notice if I play a 4 or 6 piece kit.
Quite frankly, at 1:30 in the morning I want to pack up quickly and easily, and go home.
That extra gear does matter to me and it makes a big difference. I also transport a PA system sometimes.
I said in my post that I don't condemn anyone who chooses to bring a larger kit to a gig.

By the way Grunt, You don't gig or play with bands. You almost never transport your kit.
I have a feeling that if you gigged once or twice a week your thoughts on the amount of gear that you hauled would change.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

To each his/her own; play what you like. It seems a bit strange to me that so many drummers use only two toms, but besides small bass drum jazz-sized kits, most kits on the market have three or four toms. It is usually cheaper to buy a five-piece kit and not use one tom than it is to buy a snare, bass drum, and two toms separately. I realize that drum companies want to sell as many drums as possible, but what is on the market does not match what many are actually playing. Peace and goodwill.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone. If it's your preference and it's appropriate for the music, who's business is it? Nobody's.

As for creativity I think it's irrelevant. Can't we all think of highly creative drummers who use all manner of setups? If you take a great drummer and put him or her on a bigger/smaller kit will they be more/less creative? Doubt it.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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Originally Posted by drumdevil9 View Post
I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone. If it's your preference and it's appropriate for the music, who's business is it? Nobody's.

As for creativity I think it's irrelevant. Can't we all think of highly creative drummers who use all manner of setups? If you take a great drummer and put him or her on a bigger/smaller kit will they be more/less creative? Doubt it.
Too true. Peace and goodwill.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Rather than extra toms, I like different tones like the cowbell and mounted tambourine. I freely admit I like windchimes too. In certain spots, they sound just gorgeous. I like the maraca sound too but I haven't found a way to play them with sticks yet lol. It very much feels funny to shake something and play drums with 1 stick. My bands don't really need it either. Not really crazy about a woodblock tone, I can get close enough with a rimclick. And guiros make me want to hurl, especially thr metal ones. Not a soothing tone to me, it's kind of grating. Yea, give me varied tones over extra toms any day.

But I think Andy's band and music choice justifies a bigger kit. I mean a 4 piece wouldn't fit the bigness of the rest of the show. I never thought Andy's kit was inappropriate. And Paul is right, some of those quad fills you do make me go, huh? wha?
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I have four toms at times and made my own chimes. bell chimes not wind chimes.
I would think you all know I'm kidding. Andy and I have spoken about this before and if he needs everything he needs, then he needs everything he needs. End of story. I've been quietly suggesting that he use a second bass drum ;)
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
My 6 piece kit uses two toms to the left of the bass drum on a heavy stand and two suspended floor toms on a heavy stand.
It adds a about 50 LBS to my load. It takes more time to set up, tear down and transport.
I don't see the need to lug the extra stuff for most gigs that I play.
The audience doesn't notice if I play a 4 or 6 piece kit.
Quite frankly, at 1:30 in the morning I want to pack up quickly and easily, and go home.
That extra gear does matter to me and it makes a big difference. I also transport a PA system sometimes.
I said in my post that I don't condemn anyone who chooses to bring a larger kit to a gig.

By the way Grunt, You don't gig or play with bands. You almost never transport your kit.
I have a feeling that if you gigged once or twice a week your thoughts on the amount of gear that you hauled would change.
Never played a gig but been to many and did sound for a band in my past and I agree that the average audience member doesnt know the difference if you do a big roll down the toms on 2 drums or 4 (even some signature fills like the covers you play Andy) but to anyone who knows it sounds different. I would go with more toms if you want to be a good cover band and keep getting the calls. Originals its up to you.
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I watched your video and I didn't see anything that you did that couldn't have been done on a 4 piece.
Completely true Bob, & I eluded to that in my OP. I can play all of that with just one tom if I had to, but that's not the point. I choose to use more toms because of their often melodic addition. It's a choice of voices/pitches, & the ability to use either ascending or descending patterns. At best, it's extremely difficult to pull those off with one or two toms, at least, it's beyond my skill level.

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
So you're really the only guy here who uses more than two toms and freely admits to using windchimes. This sounds like a personal issue ;)
i'll just add that to the ever growing list of personal issues Bo ;)

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You're always downplaying your drumming skills
Not downplaying, just realistic, but thank you for the fills props.

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Originally Posted by drumdevil9 View Post
I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone.
Not apologising, just adding a touch of balance to a notable direction here, & taking a bit of time to evaluate my own circumstances. Just making sure I'm not deluded.

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I never thought Andy's kit was inappropriate.
Thanks Larry, nor had I until I started questioning myself. I needed to look back at some gig footage to ascertain if my current setup added any musical value. Sure, be can all do stuff with less, but is that necessarily the best musical choice, or at least, is it the path of least resistance. I don't have the skill reserves to make things any more difficult than they already are ;)
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I have a book where a marimba composer said he openly took a simple snare solo and put it into pitch.

Now, as a marching tenor player, I can admit that having more drums can sometimes water down the difficult beats that would be needed to really rock it out on a snare or smaller set.

Certainly, If I took a modern rudimental snare solo and put it to tenor notes, it would be crazy difficult to do! Although not impossible. ;) (I think I'll try that someday!)

I like snare, and while I like a good beat, I enjoy the juicy nature of having more sounds to play with. Honestly, though, it's up to you and whatever you prefer. And if it works better with the music you're playing! I liked the setup though! Very interesting.

Because of my marching tenor nature, my most favorite setup is Bill Bachmans set. :P I liked the even look and feel, with the hat in the middle and the toms in a tenor pattern! It's like a dream set for me!
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I was on the 4 piece kit for a long time even though I had always had a 5 piece or 6 piece in possession. I now play a 5-6 piece with almost the same cymbal set up. I do not think either is really better than the other. In fact I think using different kits will help you be more creative no matter how big or small. It is about stepping out of your comfort zone in my opinion. Obviously what you play and where helps dictate what you play as well. I played in metalcore/deathcore bands when I played a 4 piece. I rarely needed to do fills for that style and I always had limited time to set up. Playing in a cover band now I generally get more time to set up and I have a lot more fills that sound better with a larger kit.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I would think you all know I'm kidding. Andy and I have spoken about this before and if he needs everything he needs, then he needs everything he needs. End of story. I've been quietly suggesting that he use a second bass drum ;)
As was I.......8+)..............
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
i'll just add that to the ever growing list of personal issues Bo ;)
Once you get that second bass drum up there, all will be forgiven ;)
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Even though I tend to just play a 5 pc, and sometimes a 4pc, I don't get the "hate" (for lack of a better term) against bigger set ups.

In particular, I don't get those that present themselves as some how superior or smug because they only have a small set up. Even more silliness is the ones who talk about their 4 pc, or one up two down, as a superior minimalist sets up, yet, they have 4 crashes, two china and or whatever else that give them just as many overall different pieces as the people with bigger kits.

I like playing a smaller kit because it's a bit more comfortable. But I grew up watching Steve Smith in Journey, Neil Peart, Kenny Jones and Keith Moon, and others who used (or still use) large set ups. Watching someone just tear it up on a large kit is still exciting to watch.

Simon Phillips is certainly not less musical or talented because he has one of darn near everything on hit kit.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:49 AM
mandrew mandrew is offline
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I have never really discerned any "hate" about bigger sets, just frank discussions on why people like what they like. I think things have been pretty civilized as far as threads on this topic have gone. It is good to be able to discuss feelings and opinions in a sharing fashion! Personally, I would be a 4 piece guy.
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  #30  
Old 06-17-2013, 03:18 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
There's been a lot of talk here over the years about 4 piece kits (& less) being all that's needed to get the job done. In most cases I agree. There's even a train of thinking that to use anything bigger than a 4 piece somehow shows a lack of skill & inventiveness, & that such kits are often a crutch of sorts. As a drummer of limited ability, I agree that to be the case sometimes, & has certainly applied to myself in the past.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. Now, I like a 4 piece as much as anyone & I use a 4 piece for rehearsal most of the time, but my gigging kit is a 6 piece. Put simply, it's what I believe is right for my gig, & more importantly, it's what the band feel is right, & have said so quite firmly.

So, I looked back over some drumcam footage of last night's gig. Just out of curiosity, how much do I actually use 3 or 4 toms in sequence. I was surprised just how much I do use those toms. OK, there are some bits that could be accommodated on two toms. I know this, because I transpose this myself in rehearsal, but there's no doubt that it takes away from the melodic flavour. I counted at least 20 occasions in a two hour set where I use 3 or 4 toms in sequence, & another 20 occasions were I use a range of toms but individually according to the pitch I think fits best.

Now, of course, this is dictated largely by the type of music I play, & our band's interpretation of that material. I've concluded that my current setup for this band is the right choice. I'm now satisfied that my gigging kit is not a crutch, & there is a time & place where using a larger set is an appropriate musical choice.

Anyhow, here's some examples I pulled off the camera from last night in support of my claim ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbE4r...=youtu.be&hd=1


.

I must really suck at the drums Andy, I use 3 up and 1 down, have more than 3 cymbals. The greatest thing about the drums over any other instrument, is we can be as creative as we want. Yes I've used only a 4 piece or 3 pieces. It all depends on the situation. I like my normal set up. If someone does not like my set up because its not the trendy thing, they can PISS OFF.
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  #31  
Old 06-17-2013, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Bigger isn't always better, but I still like me some 6 piece kits.I've used 4 piece for practice and I don't like it at all. I can get by with my 5-piece, but I like having the extra tom when gigging.
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  #32  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I enjoy playing on multiple toms, however, I like my one up one down set because I am very close to my cymbals and everything is comfortable. I would like one 6 or 7 piece kit for whenever I want to play on them.
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  #33  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:57 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

I actually don't feel that comfortable when I play my 2 up and 2 down configured 6 piece kit.
Not as comfortable as I do when I play my 4 piece.
I kind of feel like this, I have these extra drums so I have to hit them. :)
I suppose that if I was in a Rush tribute band I would think different.
I just don't feel that I need 4 toms to play most Pop, Rock, and Country standards.
I also like the condensed neat look of a classic 4 piece.
I love a rail mounted 13" single tom along with other classic features like bass drum mounted ride cymbals.
I learned how to play on kits like that during the late 60's.
I moved to a 9 piece kit in the seventies and I slowly shrunk back down to predominately playing a 4 piece at present.
I say play what you feel most comfortable with.

Andy states that he doesn't have the skill to play a 4 piece effectively.
I don't believe that! I have seen too much of his playing to know better.
He just doesn't feel comfortable playing on a 4 piece and that's OK if he feels that way.
He shouldn't have to defend himself for being comfortable behind his kit.

~Most fills are only one measure long and they consist of only a few tom hits.~
Just something that I have noted from experience.
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  #34  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:59 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

It depends on a few things ...

- genre

- taste

- space

- how often you have to lug and set up/down and at what time of day or night

- whether you have roadies and/or don't mind the extra work

For the record I like three toms best, including an 8" or 10" to add some bright colour. Toms = colour. A virtuoso can use a huge palette of "colours" to advantage. Most other "painters" are better off mixing fewer "colours" that they can handle.

Some people like to have a big kit to give the impression of virtuosity - like the relationship between big cars and big doodlewangers (which I think has now been established as inverse - so it goes).

I totally relate to Bob's comment about not thinking it worth doing tons of lugging playing for venues who pay a pittance.

As for you, Andy, you are clearly out of line with all those toms - a clear example of rock'n'roll excess! Shame! Shame!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I kind of feel like this, I have these extra drums so I have to hit them. :)
Same issue here!
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  #35  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Lately, I've mostly been playing a 4-piece with a 12" up and a 14" down. The main reason I like the 4-piece is that I like to have one rack tom in the perfect spot for a rack tom. With another tom, I either have two toms that are "close enough" or I have to compromise the ride and the hi-hat. I also like the tuning simplicity of having fewer drums. It's just simpler to get pleasant intervals throughout. And my 10" would often end up way too close to the snare for comfort. Less to set-up and haul is a bonus.

There are a lot of benefits to bigger kits that I miss, though. My 14" sounds amazing tuned high. But it's just not a low enough note to be satisfying as the lowest tom available. I could add a 16", save it for those few times I really want that big low note, and the real gain is the high-tuned 14". A third or fourth tom really opens up more possibilities for sticking. You can do some pretty neat stuff with two rack toms and a snare. Likewise, you could do similar stuff with two floor toms. A left-side floor tom allows tenor-drum style stickings, too. You might still just be playing licks involving snare, high tom, and low tom, but you get more choices for stickings. (Don't let the 4-piece purists hear I said that. They'll say I should just master the sticking that works on the 4-piece).

I think diminishing returns kick in pretty quickly after 4 toms.
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  #36  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

You use all the toms you want Andy. I recently ended up buying a whole new kit out of some miscelanous Drumcraft pieces. Now I have a 1 up 2 down setup instead of my usual 4 piece setup. I have to say, I love having that extra tom. Every tune I play was written to be played on my normal setup but that extra tom just adds an extra voice to my kit for some of the busier passages. Plus having an 18" floor tom is just the cat's meow.
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  #37  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Andy states that he doesn't have the skill to play a 4 piece effectively.
That's not really what I said Bob. I lack the skills to replicate descending & ascending multiple tom fill patterns by extracting more sounds from a 4 piece kit, giving the impression of more drums than there actually are. That's a higher level skill set that's beyond my reach, & probably always will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post

Simon Phillips is certainly not less musical or talented because he has one of darn near everything on hit kit.
Absolutely true & some, but back to my world :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrew View Post
I have never really discerned any "hate" about bigger sets, just frank discussions on why people like what they like.
Nor have I, but a trend towards the multiple tom player somehow regarded as "hiding" behind a larger kit. Although that can be true (we've all seen examples of that), it's not always the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdog View Post
I like my normal set up. If someone does not like my set up because its not the trendy thing, they can PISS OFF.
Hahaha, love it Scott :) We have the same setup, & I expect nothing less from you. Anyhow, you've got nothing to worry about. Your skill is there for all to admire :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
As for you, Andy, you are clearly out of line with all those toms - a clear example of rock'n'roll excess! Shame! Shame!
You're a very naught girl, & will be forced to pay for that remark with copious rounds at the bar at LDS! ;)
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  #38  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
You're a very naught girl, & will be forced to pay for that remark with copious rounds at the bar at LDS! ;)
Hmm, I would say I'm a naught, more that I have minimalist inclinations.

Your comment suggests that RnR excess described you pretty well ;-)

Quote:
I lack the skills to replicate descending & ascending multiple tom fill patterns by extracting more sounds from a 4 piece kit, giving the impression of more drums than there actually are.
Almost no one can replicate the feeling of 5-6 tom fills with just two toms. They could do cool alternative things but ti wouldn't be the same. Also, in classic rock and metal there's also appearance to consider ...
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  #39  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumdevil9 View Post
I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone. If it's your preference and it's appropriate for the music, who's business is it? Nobody's.

As for creativity I think it's irrelevant. Can't we all think of highly creative drummers who use all manner of setups? If you take a great drummer and put him or her on a bigger/smaller kit will they be more/less creative? Doubt it.
I was about to type the same sort of thing as this...........

Only person who has to care is the one playing them. I think people are ignorant and arrogant if they believe having less or more voices to work with enhances or diminishes someone's abilities. Ridiculous.

I play a 4 piece for a few reasons. I'm lazy - don't want to carry more. It's cheaper - less drums to buy and maintain. I'm small in size so setting up more drums isn't comfortable for me to work with.
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  #40  
Old 06-17-2013, 01:05 PM
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Bad Tempered Clavier Bad Tempered Clavier is offline
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Default Re: In defence of multiple toms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
In particular, I don't get those that present themselves as some how superior or smug because they only have a small set up
Hear, hear: if one chooses a small set up because of space on the stage, space in the van, or in order to avoid a herniated spinal disc then fine. But there are many who ride the wave of macho bullshit and reckon that those who choose the minimal set ups are proper Zen-like Yoda drummers and only they are sufficiently attuned to their instruments to understand that one can do everything that's ever been possible on a drum set with just 4 drums and 3 cymbals.

It's the same people who drone on about how Real Drummers don't use moongel - yet they use premuffled heads; Real Drummers don't put anything inside their bass drums - yet using a PS3 and a felt strip doesn't count; and typically whenever someone starts a thread about which are the best practice pads they are the first to chime in with "I practice on a DRUM. DUH . . ."

I think it's fine to fly the flag for having lots of toms [especially if one is in the business of making and selling drums ;)] and boo hiss to anyone who has a pop at anyone else for what kind of kit they use. I mean, we're not hairdressers for god's sake . . .
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