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  #41  
Old 04-30-2013, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
It's difficult, Larry. I try to take it one day at a time. How does one keep at bay intrusive thoughts of precise 16th note subdivisions, 4-limb coordinated independence and deep control of internal dynamics?

Then there are the nightmares ... I'm in a labour camp and David Garibaldi is forcing me to tap quarter notes at 40bpm until I can bury the click ... I wake up screaming "The flams ... the flams!"
You go girl. Anon La Ply. So much better than she suggests. What a great drummer she is. Pay no attention to her self effacing-ness, the woman can really lay it down nicely.
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  #42  
Old 05-01-2013, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Personally, I am definitely more of a groove player. It really depends on the kind of music and what the music calls for if you ask me. I think its so cool to hear a great groove but some crazy ass off the wall fill in sections. Latley with all the jazz and reggae stuff I have been learning, I will say I am leaning more towards the groove feel. I think StickIt would agree (I think he is the only person that has heard my playing lol.) but anyways yeah definitely more groove like. :p
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  #43  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
the woman can really lay it down nicely.
I can play a bit of drums too!

I think I'm the only one to admit being a technical player and I'm dead simple with less technique than the vast majority of regulars here. I think this reflects what appears to be a stigma against the naturally ungroovy.

So why should a simple drumming bozo like me claim to be "technical"? I'm not an emotional player - I don't express myself through drums (I do that much better with words). I'm a bit unco and goofy, and not really a groovy kind of gal ... eg. I can't dance to save my life and my attempts at stick tricks are laughable. I'm constantly in trouble and my process of playing is a series of small recoveries.

But I can analyse a track and think things through - working out effective (somewhat minimal) drum parts through a mix of logic and instinct and have developed reasonable timing and a fair bit of theory for a totally untrained 100% non-pro hobbyist.

To me, that's more technical-minded and nerdy than "groove", although if I get the timing right then some drum parts will naturally groove.
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  #44  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:33 AM
5678...procrastinate 5678...procrastinate is offline
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Heavens help us !
You guys are turning self deprecation into an art form !

Please, allow yourselves the credit you are due for what you do.
You groove ..............objective 1
You will use technique to achieve that.

If something else is required, you apply available technique with 'taste'....objective 2

The thing that 'sits under' technique is soul/ spirit/ individuality.

By the way, I'm defining technique as the ability to hit the right things in the right order.

Enjoy !
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  #45  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I'm constantly in trouble and my process of playing is a series of small recoveries.
You take the self-deprecation too far sometimes (you're a fine player, whether you know it or not), but this is really funny, Grea. The kind of thing one puts in one's forum signature. Well done.
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  #46  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I have always been more of a technical player...always trying to get everything perfect. I focused so much on tightness in my playing that I never learnt to groove.

Kinda sucks actually.
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  #47  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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You take the self-deprecation too far sometimes (you're a fine player, whether you know it or not), but this is really funny, Grea. The kind of thing one puts in one's forum signature. Well done.
Way kind, Mr L, but my brain is one that likes to linger and, well, mull over things in detail. Meanwhile music goes by quickly.

So it's rare that I'm thinking of the next note while playing the current one, which I understand is the Zen zone. I'm usually mentally playing catchup and tidying up whatever train wreck I happen to be inadvertently concocting ...


Josh, nothing wrong with not being a groover if that's who you are. Groove is in vogue, but it was a mere, um, 40 years ago (yipes!) that prog was popular with the masses and many drummers were approaching the playing in a more cerebral way rather than the funky, groovy, get-down-baby approach that's everywhere today. It's okay to be white and nerdy ... or in the words of Weird Al ...

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  #48  
Old 05-05-2013, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Think of all the drummers known for their chops. I don't even have to drop names. They groove like crazy. It does't have to be either/or. I strive for both though I don't have monster chops. Yet!
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2013, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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So as I progress further along this drumming journey, I'm beginning to sense there are two basic approaches to drumming. Some people are striving for a groove kind of feel to their playing and some are trying to be as technical as possible. So I'm just curious, what's your approach or goal when playing?

I definitely want to become a drummer that someone listens to and say...Man, that girl can groove! I don't care about hitting 225 bpm or doing some Neil Peart 10 minute monster solo. Not a darn thing wrong with that but it's just not where I'm at.

So...Groove or technical?
The separation is real in some instances and nonexistant in others. Someone with technical skill can lay down a seriously fat groove; it is all a matter of temperament. I've heard some amazingly technically skilled drummers lay down morbidly obese grooves.

On the other hand, someone with good groove skills might not be able to play very technically. That's not a matter of temperament but of talent and skill.
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2013, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Don't we all use techniques to express our feeling? I do not think you can have one without the other.
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  #51  
Old 07-29-2013, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I try to be both, but I'm not that great at either.
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  #52  
Old 07-29-2013, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I spent waaaaaaay too much time on being "technical" as a young player. Maybe it was a good thing, for sticking in "hip" licks and beat displacements here and there but I've found that being a groove-minded player gets you more gigs and keeps them. Sadly I've never had to play a 13 over 5 polyrhythm in a gig. Maybe someday...

I think "technique" and "technical" might mean different things to different people. The ability to pull good tones out of drums, play clear and crisp fills and have dynamic control is essential to making grooves work and sound good. To be "technical", you could say a Vinnie Colaiuta is about the best there is, but he has such an incredible time-feel that it's certainly inspired me to keep up my chops while always playing for the song.
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  #53  
Old 07-29-2013, 04:59 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I'm definitely a groove player, but in most cases one needs to have good technique in order to groove. Soul Vaccination, Rosana, Funky drummer are all groovy tunes, but demand great technical control
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  #54  
Old 07-29-2013, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

The question itself I believe can lead one to a sad place. On one hand, if you play a groove (good or bad) you're doing so with a certain technique. Most of the greatest groove players have some pretty well developed technique that allows them to be as such. And a "technical" player with no groove is un-listenable to me.

I believe these two elements are actually very closely tied together.
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  #55  
Old 07-29-2013, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Up to this point, mostly a groove player. But the technical player is just itching to break out.
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  #56  
Old 07-29-2013, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I'm still working on my technique, and I'm focused on that. I don't work on "groove" at all, and probably won't, so far as I know what it is. Just to be clear: not diminishing an approach in any way, it's just not something I listen to or work on.
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  #57  
Old 07-29-2013, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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I'm still working on my technique, and I'm focused on that. I don't work on "groove" at all, and probably won't, so far as I know what it is. Just to be clear: not diminishing an approach in any way, it's just not something I listen to or work on.
I still say that "technique" and "technical" are slightly different meanings, in terms of drumming. You can have great technique in terms of playing crisply, relaxed and are able to play with great dynamic control and get a great sound out of the drums like a Curt Bisquera. Curt however, will admit, he's not a Dave Weckl or a Vinnie. Playing 19/16 grooves with all kinds of over-the-barline phrases and still being able to hit all the accents in the phrase, would be "technical" and also does require a lot of technique. I think you CAN have great technique but not approach playing music from a technical angle... if that makes sense.
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  #58  
Old 07-29-2013, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by BillBachman View Post
The question itself I believe can lead one to a sad place. On one hand, if you play a groove (good or bad) you're doing so with a certain technique. Most of the greatest groove players have some pretty well developed technique that allows them to be as such. And a "technical" player with no groove is un-listenable to me.

I believe these two elements are actually very closely tied together.
Perfectly stated. It's a 2 prong approach. It's like saying, do you prefer your right leg, or your left leg? So they are joined together. That's why they call it hip lol.

I think everyone must past this mile marker in the journey. The groove vs feel threads from the past are classic battles. I don't think Mary realized that she just naturally stumbled upon a burning question that most drummers ask at some point. Which Bill really crystallized.
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  #59  
Old 07-29-2013, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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I think everyone must past this mile marker in the journey. The groove vs feel threads from the past are classic battles. I don't think Mary realized that she just naturally stumbled upon a burning question that most drummers ask at some point. Which Bill really crystallized.
You are correct...I seem to have created a monster but I must say reading the responses has been enlightening and entertaining. I'm glad to see this one revived.
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  #60  
Old 07-29-2013, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

This monster has been to this town a number of times....and I bet this isn't the last we will see of it/him/her/Watso
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  #61  
Old 07-29-2013, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Lots of great insight here!!

It doesn't matter how technically challenging something might be, it HAS to groove!

More technical proficiency just makes ideas flow easier, either simple or complex. It just allows you to not fight the instrument in order to play what you wanna play. Technique is just control.
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  #62  
Old 07-30-2013, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by Ian Ballard View Post
I still say that "technique" and "technical" are slightly different meanings, in terms of drumming. You can have great technique in terms of playing crisply, relaxed and are able to play with great dynamic control and get a great sound out of the drums like a Curt Bisquera. Curt however, will admit, he's not a Dave Weckl or a Vinnie. Playing 19/16 grooves with all kinds of over-the-barline phrases and still being able to hit all the accents in the phrase, would be "technical" and also does require a lot of technique. I think you CAN have great technique but not approach playing music from a technical angle... if that makes sense.
Don't disagree, but I see technique as the means to that end. Unfortunately it's still basic technique for me, ha. But the outcome I'm looking for is "technical." Like, I wouldn't say I want to be a technical drummer, so I'm sitting in on a lot of house bands and working on feel.

I don't know much about the drummers you mention but I think I see the point - you can hear two drummers play the same thing under the two different motives (tech. vs. groove) and they'll sound and feel different.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:28 AM
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  #63  
Old 07-30-2013, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I'll tow the line others have thrown out here, since it makes sense to me.

Think of groove, whether it be a boom-boom-chick-chick sound in funk or a jungle-y double bass rhythm in death metal, as the ultimate goal. The perfect complement for the music being played by the other instruments, the final destination at the end of the road.

Technique, on the other hand, is the tools to fine tune your playing so that you get to the end of the road.

Does your "engine" flame out and crash in a heap in the middle of a jam in a public setting?

Does it hiccup and stutter and hit potholes as you power through to the end of the set amid jeers from other motorists watching you in the crowd?

Or is it like a purring prima donna sauntering effortlessly across the stage and over, under and through the notes floating in the air.

As a guy that once tricked a Goddess for two boons instead of just the one: "One without the other would be useless, my Lord. I had to have both."
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  #64  
Old 07-30-2013, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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I think I'm split right down the middle - but the phone rings more when I remain steadfast and groovy.
/\ What he said. Seems like you get more calls when you're viewed as one that stays in the pocket. Not sure if that's good or bad.
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  #65  
Old 07-30-2013, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

My groove may not be your groove, just as your technique certainly isn't mine.

In other words: I'm a drummer. Just not a very accomplished one.
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  #66  
Old 07-30-2013, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

...

..... are you a nice guy or do you like ice cream?


...
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  #67  
Old 07-30-2013, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

you can play a groove with technique.

groove is relative. In death metal, keeping solid time on a blast is the groove and pocket of the song. OR do you mean groove as in playing a standard 2 and 4 on the snare at a tempo between 100 and 140bpm.

I would say I am more of a "more is more" player than "less is more." I really think whoever coined the phrase "less is more" should probably go back to kindergarten math class.
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  #68  
Old 07-30-2013, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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...

..... are you a nice guy or do you like ice cream?


...
I like ice cream. I even started a thread on ice cream. Yummy, cool, refreshing ice cream.
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  #69  
Old 07-31-2013, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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I like ice cream. I even started a thread on ice cream. Yummy, cool, refreshing ice cream.
Hold on just a minute. What are we talking about here? Ice cream? Or "ice cream"? Sort of like "Puff the magic dragon" or "Waiting for my man"?



:P
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  #70  
Old 08-01-2013, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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/\ What he said. Seems like you get more calls when you're viewed as one that stays in the pocket. Not sure if that's good or bad.
I feel it's more about playing what the music requires. Whatever a drummer plays, has to be in the pocket. It seems the sometimes the association is that being technical means overplaying. Sometimes the music requires less, sometimes more, sometimes it need to be laid back, sometimes it just needs to be more dense.
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  #71  
Old 08-01-2013, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Bozzio is another example of a guy who's groove is oft overlooked because of his predominant use of melodic soloing as the norm. He mostly does clinics and educational things on a giant melodic kit, so people associate him with "technicality". However, the guy's groove is SUPER DEEP, if you've heard his Brecker Bros, Lonely Bears or Bozzio/Levin/Stevens stuff. Even some of the Zappa stuff shows how smooth and groovin' he can be.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by MaryO View Post
So as I progress further along this drumming journey, I'm beginning to sense there are two basic approaches to drumming. Some people are striving for a groove kind of feel to their playing and some are trying to be as technical as possible. So I'm just curious, what's your approach or goal when playing?

I definitely want to become a drummer that someone listens to and say...Man, that girl can groove! I don't care about hitting 225 bpm or doing some Neil Peart 10 minute monster solo. Not a darn thing wrong with that but it's just not where I'm at.

So...Groove or technical?
They say that there are two kinds of people in the world - those that put everything into neat boxes and those that don't.

The root of the question is "what is your concept of music?" For this, there are far, far more than 2 answers - it is more complex than a simple gradient between two points. What is the role of drums in a band?

Technique rephrased is simply "how you go about doing something". There is definite technique to establishing grooves. Seated balance, breathing, taking care of any anxiety, etc.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Currently, due to my poor technical ability on the drums, I have to rely on my musicality to play things that sound good. Until recently, this hasn't bothered me too much, but now I'm at a point where I can't play the things that I really want to play, so it's time to do some serious wood shedding.

Eventually, I will be a groovy player who isn't hindered by an inability to play technical things.
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  #74  
Old 08-15-2013, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Great question. As I am self taught it has always been groove for me; technique is important and I do apply what I can and when it is appropiate. If I were starting over from scratch I would be taking lesson's for sure as I can get frustrated when I hear in my head what I want to do but then find I don't have the proper techique down and it comes out a flop, I am very good at the save because I do have good groove but I know that it is not what I intended. Right now most of the bands that have invited me to sit in have mentioned that they prefer the solid groove.
I will continue to read and watch and pick up new stuff (latley it has been brushwork) as it still comes in handy and out of the blue during a moment of inspiration I will nail something that astounds me (I learned not to admire the pass). I take heart of the words from Jim Chapin found on this very site in the titled Wise Words:Working on technique - that's not all!!
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/j...wisewords.html
When I'm drumming I want to be grooving or swinging with the music and so far it has been good grooving. I love watching the technical drummers and will always have them to look up to and will always recommend that new and younger drummers take lessons and indeed that seems to be the norm now anyway.
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  #75  
Old 08-15-2013, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Here is a great example of simplistic groove that compliments the song perfectly.
I encourage any of you to check out Glenn Milchem's drumming on other Blue Rodeo tracks; he has own approach that is totally based on groove.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIXbQebNExI
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  #76  
Old 08-15-2013, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

boom bang boom boom bang and repeat ad nauseaum....groove?technique?...hit them; boom bang boom boom bang etc....whatever you love dudes and dudettes....
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  #77  
Old 08-15-2013, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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...

..... are you a nice guy or do you like ice cream?


...
310lbs dude...I ******* lurve ice cream...I do think I'm quite a nice guy too tho...
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  #78  
Old 08-16-2013, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

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Originally Posted by Jonny Sumo View Post
310lbs dude...I ******* lurve ice cream...I do think I'm quite a nice guy too tho...
In that case, my good sire, perhaps you might be a groove player AND have technical skills imbibed from teachers, books, youtube, osmosis, or from amazing genetics...

How unique is that? - I shall leave it to the forum to determine.

PS- This of course is a rhetorical answer because we on this forum KNOW you can play


...
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  #79  
Old 08-16-2013, 01:41 PM
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rhumbagirl rhumbagirl is offline
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

I started off technical - think excel spreadsheet to align beats and such - then realized that sounding good on drums had more to do with dynamics and stick control. As well as coming to the understanding that (a) there are an infinite number of rhythms and permutations and stickings etc within the world of drumming, and (b) getting good had to do with realizing that only a small subset of those rhythms actually "work" and should be focused on. This is where teachers and university music programs come in. They prepare the student for this subset, as a result fasttracking the student to success.

Good question!

Steph
(note that by "technical" I'm assuming you mean the "spatial" relationship of beats and patterns that are the foundation of grooves, and that making a "groove" groove is simply playing the groove with correct dynamics. Technique is just a tool to play the groove with dynamics, and shouldn't be confused with the term "technical"...)
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:25 PM
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rhumbagirl rhumbagirl is offline
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Default Re: Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

Quote:
.... a septuplet fill phrased as 4's across 3 toms.
Is that the YYZ fill? I spent several days in my youth with a two speed tape recorder analyzing that one bar lick at 1:53 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nmOMo4OPi4

Nevermind. I'm thinking of quintuplets ... there were what sounded like five 16th notes per quarternote for beats 2 and 3, then only four 16ths in beat 4 with the lick ending on the & of 4. Beat 1 was a hextuplet. The lick starts on the snare for beat 1 hextuplet, then plays the remaining quintuplets as four per tom (three toms = 3 x 4 = 12), leaving the remaining two notes on the floortom (5 + 5 + 4 = 14.... 14 -12 = 2).

At least that was my first (technical) interpretation of a very fast executed lick, and executed by a guy most would consider the epitomy of technical drummers that ever existed (not to say that he didn't have groove because he - Neil Peart - sure as hell did!).

Peace

Steph
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Last edited by rhumbagirl; 08-16-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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