Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Aussie news article. Short version: Being happy is good for you and everybody else around you.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lif...ness-but-being-happy-pays-20130917-2tx7o.html

I'm a fan of Dan Gilbert's happiness TED talk - I've posted it here a few times already but maybe someone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Twelve years ago I had my first peak experience (at the time, I'd not touched weed for years) but it may not surprise you that I called it "My Cosmic Experience" (I've since had another). Afterwards I had a period of a couple of days where I was thinking especially lucidly.

At the time I was living in a rented flat with not much savings, no car, no drumming etc. I dreamed of having enough $$ to retire - to get off the 9 to 5 treadmill working with grumpy lawyers. During my insightful period I realised that it would make no difference to my happiness. Even if I won the lottery the next day I would not be happier - I'd still worry and be insecure and generally messy - just that my demons would be put to work on different circumstances.

That's why I'm so into the heady stuff of late. I now have the money, time and freedom and I want to be better able to appreciate it. I feel similar discordance in my inner world to before, despite now being retired and very comfortable. It's nothing dramatic, but worth sorting out IMO.

Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".

Just like drumming, eh? It's just a natural thing for a human to do ... the universe is made of rhythms ... easy peasy! You don't need to work at it ... all you need are good instincts to be a great drummer ... right?

:)
 
I'm a fan of Dan Gilbert's happiness TED talk - I've posted it here a few times already but maybe someone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Twelve years ago I had my first peak experience (at the time, I'd not touched weed for years) but it may not surprise you that I called it "My Cosmic Experience" (I've since had another). Afterwards I had a period of a couple of days where I was thinking especially lucidly.

At the time I was living in a rented flat with not much savings, no car, no drumming etc. I dreamed of having enough $$ to retire - to get off the 9 to 5 treadmill working with grumpy lawyers. During my insightful period I realised that it would make no difference to my happiness. Even if I won the lottery the next day I would not be happier - I'd still worry and be insecure and generally messy - just that my demons would be put to work on different circumstances.

That's why I'm so into the heady stuff of late. I now have the money, time and freedom and I want to be better able to appreciate it. I feel similar discordance in my inner world to before, despite now being retired and very comfortable. It's nothing dramatic, but worth sorting out IMO.

Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".

Just like drumming, eh? It's just a natural thing for a human to do ... the universe is made of rhythms ... easy peasy! You don't need to work at it ... all you need are good instincts to be a great drummer ... right?

:)

+1. Great post, Anon_La_Ply.
 
Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".

Nobody lived this kind of self-work like Ben Franklin: morning and night he reflected on what he did. That is a crazy amount of meditation and self-reflection.

(edited to more clearly address the post)
 
Nobody lived this kind of self-work like Ben Franklin: morning and night he reflected on what he did. That is a crazy amount of meditation and self-reflection.

(edited to more clearly address the post)

Smart man - that intensely goal oriented approach looks like a good way not to waste time or repeat mistakes. Tragically, the part I most related to was "Order, too, with regard to places for things, papers, etc., I found extreamly difficult to acquire".

"Resolution of the day" seems like an interesting idea - deliberately "programming himself" (which works nicely into the Digital Physics model) to limit his focus and behaviours, presumably to sharpen the focus he has. I've done a similar thing when drumming where I set myself an agenda, eg. make sure I can always hear the bass; avoid making a racket; simplicity and time, etc

Funny thing - we program ourselves all the time - lessons from parents / youth, mottos and quotes, ancient texts, lessons and agendas from the arts etc.
 
Tragically, the part I most related to was "Order, too, with regard to places for things, papers, etc., I found extreamly difficult to acquire"

I know, I know. Today I arranged several piles of paper into slightly fewer piles of paper, and called it "cleaning my office." I've got a new path from the door to the desk so at least I can eat.

Though I did like that Franklin knew enough to take a break from the schedule. “The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?”

avoid making a racket

heh.
 
I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Stephen Hawking
 
I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Stephen Hawking


Too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously. Where does having a destiny imply taking leave of your senses?

Even people that look both ways when they cross the road get mowed down. Does this mean they do/do not believe in pre-destiny?
 
Too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously. Where does having a destiny imply taking leave of your senses?

It's not an exaggeration... It's literal. If you truly believe that whatever is going to happen to you in the road while you cross is simply destiny, and you can do nothing to change it, what's the point of looking?
 
It's not an exaggeration... It's literal. If you truly believe that whatever is going to happen to you in the road while you cross is simply destiny, and you can do nothing to change it, what's the point of looking?

I think that might be instinctive, reflexive neurological/muscular impulse rather than a considered choice.

If someone swings a machete at your head, chances are you will duck, regardless of which side of the argument you're on.


...
 
On a related note, if you are of a petrol headed persuasion, google "Saudi drifting".

Among the many things to be amazed and aghast at are the large number of spectators with no sort of safety barrier between themselves and the looniest of loopy driving "techniques".

One of the explanations that I've heard for the utter disregard of personal safety is the Islamic notion of "Inshallah", the will of Allah, which is similar to pre-destiny. Whatever happens is Allah's will.
 
One of the explanations that I've heard for the utter disregard of personal safety is the Islamic notion of "Inshallah", the will of Allah, which is similar to pre-destiny. Whatever happens is Allah's will.

James, that makes perfect sense if you are raised in such an environment and you have been raised in deep, oppressive religiosity of that kind ... and if you have the kind of genetic makeup makes you unlikely to actively resist indoctrination.

The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.

'Aha!' one might say. 'I can fool so-called destiny by suddenly raising a hand spontaneously and I don't even know which hand so how could destiny "know"?'

But ... everything in that person's past means they're the kind of gronk who'd try to fool destiny with that kind of game and your unconscious mind has been geared by the past to decide which hand to lift.

If you are the kind of person who chooses not to take crazy risks - destiny or no destiny - then your past and genetics would have made it inevitable that you'd be that kind of person. Each decision you make is a product of your genetics and past (assuming there is no present because by the time you observe it, it is the past).

Each moment reduces your potentials and possibilities. For instance, I am typing this from Seoul airport (feeling a bit spaced out) and every event that went before made it inevitable that I'd type this from Seoul and not Sydney ...
 
Ah Seoul! That is where you'll find your Seoul mate. It's predestined!

Love your work lately Anon. Retirement suits you. I can't contribute too much anymore, I'm spent, but I am fascinated by what I am reading.
 
...The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.

My understanding is that quantum effects (and chaos effects) mean that the future cannot be extrapolated from the past for complex systems.
 
James, that makes perfect sense if you are raised in such an environment and you have been raised in deep, oppressive religiosity of that kind ... and if you have the kind of genetic makeup makes you unlikely to actively resist indoctrination.

The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.

'Aha!' one might say. 'I can fool so-called destiny by suddenly raising a hand spontaneously and I don't even know which hand so how could destiny "know"?'

But ... everything in that person's past means they're the kind of gronk who'd try to fool destiny with that kind of game and your unconscious mind has been geared by the past to decide which hand to lift.

If you are the kind of person who chooses not to take crazy risks - destiny or no destiny - then your past and genetics would have made it inevitable that you'd be that kind of person. Each decision you make is a product of your genetics and past (assuming there is no present because by the time you observe it, it is the past).

Each moment reduces your potentials and possibilities. For instance, I am typing this from Seoul airport (feeling a bit spaced out) and every event that went before made it inevitable that I'd type this from Seoul and not Sydney ...


Islam isn't oppressive. It's just that the extreme practitioners are the loudest in the crowd, so it's assumed they're all like that.

Think Christianity around the time of the Renaissance or Inquisition. It doesn't define the religion. It's a rabid interpretation.

Like that kind of Christianity, rabid and violent Islam is doomed to being crushed under the collective weight of rationale, modern thought and deed.

As far as being in Seoul and not Sydney, Anon La Ply, you might be cosmically, genetically, poetically or ironically pre-disposed toward making the choices that landed you in your present predicament/state of wonderment.
 
Islam isn't oppressive. It's just that the extreme practitioners are the loudest in the crowd, so it's assumed they're all like that.

Think Christianity around the time of the Renaissance or Inquisition. It doesn't define the religion. It's a rabid interpretation.

Like that kind of Christianity, rabid and violent Islam is doomed to being crushed under the collective weight of rationale, modern thought and deed.

As far as being in Seoul and not Sydney, Anon La Ply, you might be cosmically, genetically, poetically or ironically pre-disposed toward making the choices that landed you in your present predicament/state of wonderment.


Hi- Although I agree that as a whole, practitioners of Islam are not oppressive, some men of Islam are very much concerned with keeping women in a lowly place. I can't get with that.
 
I'll try once again ... the [expletive] hotel's wifi has wasted over an hour of typing on the phone ... so far.

Don't care about the religion stuff (and don't want this thread shut down) - it was just an example of how our "now" is shaped ... by genetics, environment (which would include creed) and our past.

James, yes, if you talk about distant past then the effects are unpredictable but as the recent past has a huge effect on the "present" (which becomes the past as soon as we try to grasp it).

"Chaos" is just a useful black box fiction for practical intents and purposes ... in lieu of a better understanding of cause and effect.

BTW Rome is amazing! (and insane;)
 
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