music theory: a necessity for drummers

you absolutly dont need theory training to play the drums well. But the thing is, you neeed to know theory. while dennis chambers may have never taken formal lessons, he could teach a master class at Berklee. you develop your own.

But for some, developing it on your own can take a little more time. And knowing notations like you would learn them in a music theory class would help you communicate musically

i would suggest taking music theory, it definitely doesnt hurt
 
I believe it's a necessity to a certain extent. You should know how to basically count and communicate with your other band members to create more than just music. It allows you to add a complex pattern or sound to your music to create art. But it should not consume you.
 
I don't care what other players do or don't do, know or not know - I don't care if they have theory down or not, use metronomes, rudiments, scales, get lessons, hold the sticks correctly, use the correct strokes, play tasteful fills, etc etc etc.

Bottom line: does their music make my ears happy or make me feel good in some way? Or not? I couldn't give a stuff about how they get there, including use of machines or quantising or whatever. If it works, it works. The fact is that great music can come from players who are taught, untutored, theoretical experts or clueless, etc etc.

People must follow their own path that feels right to them, even if it seems wrong / absurd / sinful / stupid to others. Bands come together and break up on that basis all the time. No judgement from me.
 
Wow, impressive bump!

I'm largely in agreement with Anon; the sound is the thing that matters in the end.

However, to that end, I'm really of the mind that drummers in particular need to spend some time looking at music theory. The reason is that I think we can very easily get caught up in thinking a whole lot of about drums and not very much about what everyone else is doing or about compositions as a whole. Even some very basic study of theory concepts like timbre, pitch, melody and harmony can drastically change the way we approach our instruments and the way we create parts.
 
All drummers should know at least some basic music theory - the black dots and squiggles on a sheet of music!!!!! Very few can get away with it all their lives if they want to get better at drumming. But I also hold to the argument that 'big ears' are just as important when learning.

As some one who spent years in a drum college I can vouch for the benefits and, uhum, frustrations of reading drum music and learning from sheet music.

But, basically, notes and rest are the 'words' we drummers speak. If don't know many notes, you haven't got much to say!!

Learn the basics at least!

TJ

www.britchops.co.uk
 
Music theory is important. By understanding how music works and how it creates the effects it does enables us as musicians to make better music, end of story.

That being said, there is one major problem (sorry) with theory. It is not based on how people hear. Music is not about which note goes in which order, or about how long you should hold this note relative to that one. Music is about how it affects the listeners.

In other words, formal music theory is all about the notes, but music is all about how the notes feel. In the present system, you study the notes enough so that later you can just feel them. This works, but how the music feels should be integrated at all levels of instruction and participation.

Emphasizing feel helps to alleviate problems of people worried if the music is 'correct' or not - the answer of whether it is correct is clear: Did it feel right?

This is the primary objection to music theory. Theory is nearly always taught in a way that focuses on the notes at the expense of feeling, and this is a very very good objection. I have a friend who has toured with Stevie Wonder, Erikah Badu, etc who never learned to read for the same reason.

But it doesn't have to be this way. The trick is to do both, and learning about the theory f how things relate enables musicians to express themselves more effectively. imho.

The other problem with theory is that rhythm is ignored.
 
Working with people who don't know basic theory can be a real PITA. Makes communication so much more difficult. If a player has an issue with it that's his ego talking. I'd view it as an opportunity to learn and not something to be threatened by.

It's nice to be able to say something and make it work instantly instead of spending 2 hours full of misunderstandings with something.
 
I'm going to have to go against popular opinion on Page 2 here. Sure, being able to read music might help you in a progressive band playing in swinging odd time signatures.

But none of the Beatles could read music early on. Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music. Lionel Richie. Stevie Wonder. Slash. Metallica. Stevie Ray Vaughn.

I don't think many bands, prog or otherwise, outsell musicians like that.

I think the music industry is rapidly progressing on some sort of elitist, dystopian path. There's this new school of thought doing the rounds, that if you're not from Berkeley (or perhaps a few other institutions), you're not allowed a leg in the door in the music industry.

It helps to be able to read music. But I'd rather play with a guy that knows what a situation calls for musically and how to add to it instead of an automaton that will just follow the path blazed by the rest of the herd he's following.

- Reggae Mangle
 
I'm going to have to go against popular opinion here. Sure, being able to read music might help you in a progressive band playing in swinging odd time signatures.

But none of the Beatles could read music early on. Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music. Lionel Richie. Stevie Wonder. Slash. Metallica. Stevie Ray Vaughn.

I don't think many bands, prog or otherwise, outsell musicians like that.

I think the music industry is rapidly progressing on some sort of elitist, dystopian path. There's this new school of thought doing the rounds, that if you're not from Berkeley (or perhaps a few other institutions), you're not allowed a leg in the door in the music industry.

It helps to be able to read music. But I'd rather play with a guy that knows what a situation calls for musically and how to add to it instead of an automaton that will just follow the path blazed by the rest of the herd he's following.

- Reggae Mangle

I think you're partly right. Ideas trump technique and the rules every time. The people you talked about had (or have) great ideas. But if you're a working musician, being able to communicate with other musicians is a good thing. If you think learning theory, or reading in general is bad because it will kill the idea, I don't know if I agree with you there.

I especially don't agree with your statement that the music industry is on some elitist path. Have you listened to the radio lately? There's so much crap on the airwaves I call it 'lowest common denominator' radio. It's like if you're good you're locked out ;)

But then again, what do I know? I just play drums ;)
 
I'm going to have to go against popular opinion on Page 2 here. Sure, being able to read music might help you in a progressive band playing in swinging odd time signatures.

But none of the Beatles could read music early on.

Why'd they bother to learn?

Anyway, music theory covers far more than reading music. You don't need to read music to think about how pitch, rhythm or timbre effect mood and emotion in the listener. I think this is much like the case of rudiments, to which Alan Dawson allegedly said, "“There are two types of drummers: those who play rudiments and know it, and those who play rudiments but don’t know it.” Substitute "music theory" for "rudiments" and it about sums it up.

If you're making a musical choice to play this instead of that to get a certain effect, your reasons constitute a kind of music theory. In such cases we're generally making a guess about how the notes we play are going to effect the composition and the listener. This guess -- or theory -- may be based in experience, intuition or formal study of particular musical theories.

When I say that I think drummers ought to study music theory, I mostly mean that we need to get out of the trap of always thinking about "how" to play and start thinking a lot more about "what, when and why" to play certain things. I mean that we need to start thinking more like composers and have some idea about what on earth the other people in the band are doing and how they view what we do.
 
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Yeah, in a lot of cases exactly the opposite is happening. It's possible to take someone with very little musical experience or skill and make them sound "good" using electronic devices. Every band has perfect time and all young drummers play perfectly even backbeats while every note is sung perfectly in tune...
 
Yeah, in a lot of cases exactly the opposite is happening. It's possible to take someone with very little musical experience or skill and make them sound "good" using electronic devices. Every band has perfect time and all young drummers play perfectly even backbeats while every note is sung perfectly in tune...

I would think the person writing the music, aka the producer, has to have some knowledge of music theory. I'm not saying a lot of it.....

Poor example here, Lady Gaga (can't believe I'm using her) is a classically trained pianist and went to TSOA. I'm sure she knows theory, she writes her own music, and she sells lots of records. Not to me, but you get where I'm going with this.....

Like others have stated, I feel that theory is good to know, even for us drummers, but theory doesn't give you feeling.....
 
I would think the person writing the music, aka the producer, has to have some knowledge of music theory. I'm not saying a lot of it.....

Poor example here, Lady Gaga (can't believe I'm using her) is a classically trained pianist and went to TSOA. I'm sure she knows theory, she writes her own music, and she sells lots of records. Not to me, but you get where I'm going with this.....

Like others have stated, I feel that theory is good to know, even for us drummers, but theory doesn't give you feeling.....

Oh yeah, there are lots of examples like that as well. You're absolutely right, it's likely that someone in the production chain knows a little something about music theory whether the performers do or not. And whether or not it's as formal as Lady Gaga's training, there is some conception about how the parts of a band/tune fit together to deliver a message.
 
This is another version of the "you need to be able to read" and "technique vs. feel" threads from about two weeks ago.

The answer is the same: If you're a great musician, whether you can read/know theory/have technique vs feel makes no difference.

But here in the real world that most of us inhabit, it's hard to think of a situation where more knowledge could ever be anything but another arrow in the quiver to use or ignore.

Is there honestly going to be a situation where knowing more of anything is ever a drawback?
 
I think you're partly right. Ideas trump technique and the rules every time. The people you talked about had (or have) great ideas. But if you're a working musician, being able to communicate with other musicians is a good thing. If you think learning theory, or reading in general is bad because it will kill the idea, I don't know if I agree with you there.

I especially don't agree with your statement that the music industry is on some elitist path. Have you listened to the radio lately? There's so much crap on the airwaves I call it 'lowest common denominator' radio. It's like if you're good you're locked out ;)

But then again, what do I know? I just play drums ;)

I, for one, think it's awesome to be able to read music. Or have any kind of knowledge :)

It might actually shock you how many of those guys that are on the airwaves are on Berkeley. Or win music awards and things. Just something I heard, something I heard on the grapevine...

I always wanted to go to Berkeley. Talent aside, I could never afford it. Hence, elitist, from an Oliver Twist perspective of the world. I mean, look at Dream Theater. All it took was Mangini for them to get a Grammy :eek:

- Reggae Mangle
 
That does not take anything away from the achievement of winning a Grammy or being successful in the music biz. But there's hints of an "old-boy" referral system in place, similar to what was seen in the Army, and I have no clue whether that system is in vogue in the Army today or in the music industry.

I do agree though that quality is in the toilet. I mean, read music to play Justin Bieber tracks? Leaving aside the benefits of paying the bills...

I totally agree with Odd-Arne Oseberg anf Boomka. My point is not "don't read music, it's bad for you". It will definitely benefit you and help you understand some of the "relations" between "music" (similar to notes in sequences) and "art" (beautiful notes in sequences).

- Reggae Mangle
 
Like others have stated, I feel that theory is good to know, even for us drummers, but theory doesn't give you feeling.....

Bottom line: The feeling is what matters. Playing with feeling is both necessary and sufficient to make good music,

Music theory is designed to describe how music creates feeling but does an incomplete job of it. Knowing music theory gives musicians more tools to express themselves and play better stuff.

It does not say *anything* about the actual performance of music, yet. It restricts itself entirely to what can be written in staff notation - which is a form of data compression where more of the components of a good performance are lost.

But, in the limited scope that music theory has anything to say about (i.e. how pitches relate on paper) it is very useful and powerful. It also provides musicians with tools to communicate with other musicians and is more than worthwhile the effort to understand.
 
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