In defence of multiple toms.

I have four toms at times and made my own chimes. bell chimes not wind chimes.

I would think you all know I'm kidding. Andy and I have spoken about this before and if he needs everything he needs, then he needs everything he needs. End of story. I've been quietly suggesting that he use a second bass drum ;)
 
My 6 piece kit uses two toms to the left of the bass drum on a heavy stand and two suspended floor toms on a heavy stand.
It adds a about 50 LBS to my load. It takes more time to set up, tear down and transport.
I don't see the need to lug the extra stuff for most gigs that I play.
The audience doesn't notice if I play a 4 or 6 piece kit.
Quite frankly, at 1:30 in the morning I want to pack up quickly and easily, and go home.
That extra gear does matter to me and it makes a big difference. I also transport a PA system sometimes.
I said in my post that I don't condemn anyone who chooses to bring a larger kit to a gig.

By the way Grunt, You don't gig or play with bands. You almost never transport your kit.
I have a feeling that if you gigged once or twice a week your thoughts on the amount of gear that you hauled would change.

Never played a gig but been to many and did sound for a band in my past and I agree that the average audience member doesnt know the difference if you do a big roll down the toms on 2 drums or 4 (even some signature fills like the covers you play Andy) but to anyone who knows it sounds different. I would go with more toms if you want to be a good cover band and keep getting the calls. Originals its up to you.
 
I watched your video and I didn't see anything that you did that couldn't have been done on a 4 piece.
Completely true Bob, & I eluded to that in my OP. I can play all of that with just one tom if I had to, but that's not the point. I choose to use more toms because of their often melodic addition. It's a choice of voices/pitches, & the ability to use either ascending or descending patterns. At best, it's extremely difficult to pull those off with one or two toms, at least, it's beyond my skill level.

So you're really the only guy here who uses more than two toms and freely admits to using windchimes. This sounds like a personal issue ;)
i'll just add that to the ever growing list of personal issues Bo ;)

You're always downplaying your drumming skills
Not downplaying, just realistic, but thank you for the fills props.

I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone.
Not apologising, just adding a touch of balance to a notable direction here, & taking a bit of time to evaluate my own circumstances. Just making sure I'm not deluded.

I never thought Andy's kit was inappropriate.
Thanks Larry, nor had I until I started questioning myself. I needed to look back at some gig footage to ascertain if my current setup added any musical value. Sure, be can all do stuff with less, but is that necessarily the best musical choice, or at least, is it the path of least resistance. I don't have the skill reserves to make things any more difficult than they already are ;)
 
I was on the 4 piece kit for a long time even though I had always had a 5 piece or 6 piece in possession. I now play a 5-6 piece with almost the same cymbal set up. I do not think either is really better than the other. In fact I think using different kits will help you be more creative no matter how big or small. It is about stepping out of your comfort zone in my opinion. Obviously what you play and where helps dictate what you play as well. I played in metalcore/deathcore bands when I played a 4 piece. I rarely needed to do fills for that style and I always had limited time to set up. Playing in a cover band now I generally get more time to set up and I have a lot more fills that sound better with a larger kit.
 
I would think you all know I'm kidding. Andy and I have spoken about this before and if he needs everything he needs, then he needs everything he needs. End of story. I've been quietly suggesting that he use a second bass drum ;)

As was I.......8+)..............
 
Even though I tend to just play a 5 pc, and sometimes a 4pc, I don't get the "hate" (for lack of a better term) against bigger set ups.

In particular, I don't get those that present themselves as some how superior or smug because they only have a small set up. Even more silliness is the ones who talk about their 4 pc, or one up two down, as a superior minimalist sets up, yet, they have 4 crashes, two china and or whatever else that give them just as many overall different pieces as the people with bigger kits.

I like playing a smaller kit because it's a bit more comfortable. But I grew up watching Steve Smith in Journey, Neil Peart, Kenny Jones and Keith Moon, and others who used (or still use) large set ups. Watching someone just tear it up on a large kit is still exciting to watch.

Simon Phillips is certainly not less musical or talented because he has one of darn near everything on hit kit.

In the end it's what ever makes YOU happy and best serves the music YOU play.
 
I have never really discerned any "hate" about bigger sets, just frank discussions on why people like what they like. I think things have been pretty civilized as far as threads on this topic have gone. It is good to be able to discuss feelings and opinions in a sharing fashion! Personally, I would be a 4 piece guy.
 
There's been a lot of talk here over the years about 4 piece kits (& less) being all that's needed to get the job done. In most cases I agree. There's even a train of thinking that to use anything bigger than a 4 piece somehow shows a lack of skill & inventiveness, & that such kits are often a crutch of sorts. As a drummer of limited ability, I agree that to be the case sometimes, & has certainly applied to myself in the past.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. Now, I like a 4 piece as much as anyone & I use a 4 piece for rehearsal most of the time, but my gigging kit is a 6 piece. Put simply, it's what I believe is right for my gig, & more importantly, it's what the band feel is right, & have said so quite firmly.

So, I looked back over some drumcam footage of last night's gig. Just out of curiosity, how much do I actually use 3 or 4 toms in sequence. I was surprised just how much I do use those toms. OK, there are some bits that could be accommodated on two toms. I know this, because I transpose this myself in rehearsal, but there's no doubt that it takes away from the melodic flavour. I counted at least 20 occasions in a two hour set where I use 3 or 4 toms in sequence, & another 20 occasions were I use a range of toms but individually according to the pitch I think fits best.

Now, of course, this is dictated largely by the type of music I play, & our band's interpretation of that material. I've concluded that my current setup for this band is the right choice. I'm now satisfied that my gigging kit is not a crutch, & there is a time & place where using a larger set is an appropriate musical choice.

Anyhow, here's some examples I pulled off the camera from last night in support of my claim ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbE4rOmfj9U&feature=youtu.be&hd=1


.


I must really suck at the drums Andy, I use 3 up and 1 down, have more than 3 cymbals. The greatest thing about the drums over any other instrument, is we can be as creative as we want. Yes I've used only a 4 piece or 3 pieces. It all depends on the situation. I like my normal set up. If someone does not like my set up because its not the trendy thing, they can PISS OFF.
 
Bigger isn't always better, but I still like me some 6 piece kits.I've used 4 piece for practice and I don't like it at all. I can get by with my 5-piece, but I like having the extra tom when gigging.
 
I enjoy playing on multiple toms, however, I like my one up one down set because I am very close to my cymbals and everything is comfortable. I would like one 6 or 7 piece kit for whenever I want to play on them.
 
I actually don't feel that comfortable when I play my 2 up and 2 down configured 6 piece kit.
Not as comfortable as I do when I play my 4 piece.
I kind of feel like this, I have these extra drums so I have to hit them. :)
I suppose that if I was in a Rush tribute band I would think different.
I just don't feel that I need 4 toms to play most Pop, Rock, and Country standards.
I also like the condensed neat look of a classic 4 piece.
I love a rail mounted 13" single tom along with other classic features like bass drum mounted ride cymbals.
I learned how to play on kits like that during the late 60's.
I moved to a 9 piece kit in the seventies and I slowly shrunk back down to predominately playing a 4 piece at present.
I say play what you feel most comfortable with.

Andy states that he doesn't have the skill to play a 4 piece effectively.
I don't believe that! I have seen too much of his playing to know better.
He just doesn't feel comfortable playing on a 4 piece and that's OK if he feels that way.
He shouldn't have to defend himself for being comfortable behind his kit.

~Most fills are only one measure long and they consist of only a few tom hits.~
Just something that I have noted from experience.
 
It depends on a few things ...

- genre

- taste

- space

- how often you have to lug and set up/down and at what time of day or night

- whether you have roadies and/or don't mind the extra work

For the record I like three toms best, including an 8" or 10" to add some bright colour. Toms = colour. A virtuoso can use a huge palette of "colours" to advantage. Most other "painters" are better off mixing fewer "colours" that they can handle.

Some people like to have a big kit to give the impression of virtuosity - like the relationship between big cars and big doodlewangers (which I think has now been established as inverse - so it goes).

I totally relate to Bob's comment about not thinking it worth doing tons of lugging playing for venues who pay a pittance.

As for you, Andy, you are clearly out of line with all those toms - a clear example of rock'n'roll excess! Shame! Shame!

I kind of feel like this, I have these extra drums so I have to hit them. :)

Same issue here!
 
Lately, I've mostly been playing a 4-piece with a 12" up and a 14" down. The main reason I like the 4-piece is that I like to have one rack tom in the perfect spot for a rack tom. With another tom, I either have two toms that are "close enough" or I have to compromise the ride and the hi-hat. I also like the tuning simplicity of having fewer drums. It's just simpler to get pleasant intervals throughout. And my 10" would often end up way too close to the snare for comfort. Less to set-up and haul is a bonus.

There are a lot of benefits to bigger kits that I miss, though. My 14" sounds amazing tuned high. But it's just not a low enough note to be satisfying as the lowest tom available. I could add a 16", save it for those few times I really want that big low note, and the real gain is the high-tuned 14". A third or fourth tom really opens up more possibilities for sticking. You can do some pretty neat stuff with two rack toms and a snare. Likewise, you could do similar stuff with two floor toms. A left-side floor tom allows tenor-drum style stickings, too. You might still just be playing licks involving snare, high tom, and low tom, but you get more choices for stickings. (Don't let the 4-piece purists hear I said that. They'll say I should just master the sticking that works on the 4-piece).

I think diminishing returns kick in pretty quickly after 4 toms.
 
You use all the toms you want Andy. I recently ended up buying a whole new kit out of some miscelanous Drumcraft pieces. Now I have a 1 up 2 down setup instead of my usual 4 piece setup. I have to say, I love having that extra tom. Every tune I play was written to be played on my normal setup but that extra tom just adds an extra voice to my kit for some of the busier passages. Plus having an 18" floor tom is just the cat's meow.
 
Andy states that he doesn't have the skill to play a 4 piece effectively.
That's not really what I said Bob. I lack the skills to replicate descending & ascending multiple tom fill patterns by extracting more sounds from a 4 piece kit, giving the impression of more drums than there actually are. That's a higher level skill set that's beyond my reach, & probably always will be.

Simon Phillips is certainly not less musical or talented because he has one of darn near everything on hit kit.
Absolutely true & some, but back to my world :(

I have never really discerned any "hate" about bigger sets, just frank discussions on why people like what they like.
Nor have I, but a trend towards the multiple tom player somehow regarded as "hiding" behind a larger kit. Although that can be true (we've all seen examples of that), it's not always the case.

I like my normal set up. If someone does not like my set up because its not the trendy thing, they can PISS OFF.
Hahaha, love it Scott :) We have the same setup, & I expect nothing less from you. Anyhow, you've got nothing to worry about. Your skill is there for all to admire :)

As for you, Andy, you are clearly out of line with all those toms - a clear example of rock'n'roll excess! Shame! Shame!
You're a very naught girl, & will be forced to pay for that remark with copious rounds at the bar at LDS! ;)
 
You're a very naught girl, & will be forced to pay for that remark with copious rounds at the bar at LDS! ;)

Hmm, I would say I'm a naught, more that I have minimalist inclinations.

Your comment suggests that RnR excess described you pretty well ;-)

I lack the skills to replicate descending & ascending multiple tom fill patterns by extracting more sounds from a 4 piece kit, giving the impression of more drums than there actually are.

Almost no one can replicate the feeling of 5-6 tom fills with just two toms. They could do cool alternative things but ti wouldn't be the same. Also, in classic rock and metal there's also appearance to consider ...
 
I don't think anyone should be apologizing or justifying their kit size to anyone. If it's your preference and it's appropriate for the music, who's business is it? Nobody's.

As for creativity I think it's irrelevant. Can't we all think of highly creative drummers who use all manner of setups? If you take a great drummer and put him or her on a bigger/smaller kit will they be more/less creative? Doubt it.

I was about to type the same sort of thing as this...........

Only person who has to care is the one playing them. I think people are ignorant and arrogant if they believe having less or more voices to work with enhances or diminishes someone's abilities. Ridiculous.

I play a 4 piece for a few reasons. I'm lazy - don't want to carry more. It's cheaper - less drums to buy and maintain. I'm small in size so setting up more drums isn't comfortable for me to work with.
 
In particular, I don't get those that present themselves as some how superior or smug because they only have a small set up

Hear, hear: if one chooses a small set up because of space on the stage, space in the van, or in order to avoid a herniated spinal disc then fine. But there are many who ride the wave of macho bullshit and reckon that those who choose the minimal set ups are proper Zen-like Yoda drummers and only they are sufficiently attuned to their instruments to understand that one can do everything that's ever been possible on a drum set with just 4 drums and 3 cymbals.

It's the same people who drone on about how Real Drummers don't use moongel - yet they use premuffled heads; Real Drummers don't put anything inside their bass drums - yet using a PS3 and a felt strip doesn't count; and typically whenever someone starts a thread about which are the best practice pads they are the first to chime in with "I practice on a DRUM. DUH . . ."

I think it's fine to fly the flag for having lots of toms [especially if one is in the business of making and selling drums ;)] and boo hiss to anyone who has a pop at anyone else for what kind of kit they use. I mean, we're not hairdressers for god's sake . . .
 
Hmm, I would say I'm a naught, more that I have minimalist inclinations.

Your comment suggests that RnR excess described you pretty well ;-)



Almost no one can replicate the feeling of 5-6 tom fills with just two toms. They could do cool alternative things but ti wouldn't be the same. Also, in classic rock and metal there's also appearance to consider ...
Sorry for the "I'm rushed" typo. For the sake of clarity, you are a very naughty girl ;)

You got my point about extracting many tones/pitches out of few toms. I've only ever met one drummer personally who could do that. His mastery of touch & position on each tom was unreal, & was beyond anything I could hope to achieve.

Good point about appearance too. It's not really on my radar, & certainly not a component of my OP, but it does matter. The stage set does influence audience perception. That often makes me wonder what a jazz festival audience thinks when they first see Simon Phillips's kit at a Hiromi gig!

Only person who has to care is the one playing them.
True, but my band takes quite an interest in both my sound & my setup. They're unusually good at picking up changes, even small ones, & quite vocal if they don't like something.

I think it's fine to fly the flag for having lots of toms [especially if one is in the business of making and selling drums ;)]
Ooooo, that's not even a factor in my thinking, but I see how you could come to that conclusion. Every customer we've ever had has a defined setup in mind before they even speak to us.
 
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