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-   -   Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study. (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106868)

Thaard 05-13-2013 10:56 PM

Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
So, since I wasn't good enough to get into university jazz-studies, I decided to dedicate a year to studying jazz-drumming and drummers. I have recorded drums to 4 different jazz-playalongs, and I'm going to record the same tunes in about a year or so, to see if I've had any progress.
Hopefully, I can get some feedback from all the jazz cats here on what I need to work on(other than my phrasing, vocabulary and timing). I've only practiced traditional grip for 3 weeks now, so it's not nearly as good as I want it to be.


Here's the link to the playlist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbbBh...1RoT508U1hDFfb

Swiss Matthias 05-13-2013 11:05 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Nice playing! But......Meinl don't sell a Vintage 24" ride, do they!?

Thaard 05-13-2013 11:09 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias (Post 1139829)
Nice playing! But......Meinl don't sell a Vintage 24" ride, do they!?

Ooops, supposed to be 22". Fixed, thanks ;)

larryace 05-13-2013 11:33 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Beautiful loose playing man. Felt just right.

Numberless 05-14-2013 01:11 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Hey thaard I checked out the first video and Out in the Open. You have great chops and some really hip ideas, I think your progress is coming along quite nicely. I feel your ride cymbal is sometimes getting lost in the shuffle of your comping, I think it would do you good to simplify, leave more space in your comping and just focus on getting your ride pattern as swingin' as possible, maybe even just play the ride cymbal for a while.

Anthony Amodeo 05-14-2013 02:17 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
killin it Thaard

really great progress .....and for the amount of time that you have been working on your jazz playing this is superb.

keep it up my man......you are ahead of the curve

looking forward to watching your future progress

dmacc 05-14-2013 03:48 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Great things happening. Touch will come but you're ideas are great and it is clear that you are listening to the music being played!

Anon La Ply 05-14-2013 04:13 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Thaardy, I still find it hard to imagine you not being "good enough" for jazz classes. My guess is you were not "jazz enough". This is the most authentic sounding jazz playing I've heard from you - sounds great to me. As always, killer hands.

LimpyLoo 05-14-2013 04:40 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
You clearly know what you're doing. I think all you need (if anything) is some fine-tuning and to simply continue on the path of amassing vocabulary.

But yeah, you're gonna be fine by the looks of it. :D


Cheers

jodgey4 05-14-2013 04:43 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
I'd listen to you play all day. You should post more. Solid timing, super excellent vocab. Well beyond mine in any case. I'd throw in a small passage in some of the swing stuff with just some hardcore quarter notes on the ride, just to show some simple playing. Also, there are a few moments in each tune where you could probably let loose a little more and bring up the volume. Crash on that Sand Ride, and spank it real good. Some dirt won't hurt.
Not sure if this is a playing comment or a mixing thing, but I would personally prefer to hear the snare louder. Your left hand has some mad skill, but some of the definition and presence is getting lost. On a looser snare, you could try comping closer to the middle, that might help. Or it's just a micing/mixing issue, and the snare just needs to be brought up.

aydee 05-14-2013 07:25 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Thaardy,

Really surprised to hear that you are not 'good enough for jazz'? completely agree with Grea & Anthony.. thats really nice playing, any way you look at it, period!!

For what its worth, if youre looking for criticism, my two pennies:

Perhaps a little over-comped. You we playing entire melodic phrases rather than accenting
parts of them, and the volume of the phrasing got a little high in context of the ride cymbal.. but maybe thats just the recording.. ( Peter Erskine is a good guy to listen to for volume IMO )

All in all, kickbutt stuff though..


Hope alls good with you, long time.



...

Anthony Amodeo 05-14-2013 05:09 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 1139979)
Thaardy,

Really surprised to hear that you are not 'good enough for jazz'? completely agree with Grea & Anthony.. thats really nice playing, any way you look at it, period!!

For what its worth, if youre looking for criticism, my two pennies:

Perhaps a little over-comped. You we playing entire melodic phrases rather than accenting
parts of them, and the volume of the phrasing got a little high in context of the ride cymbal.. but maybe thats just the recording.. ( Peter Erskine is a good guy to listen to for volume IMO )

All in all, kickbutt stuff though..


Hope alls good with you, long time.



...

I agree with this

instead of following the tunes hits verbatim ....which is more of a big band style....tie in your own phrases to compliment them .....fill in the cracks so to speak

the playing was also a bit too "rock" at times .....but as dmacc said....touch will absolutely come in time and vocabulary will translate

....and jodgey4 mentioned that your snare needs to be louder.....which is absolutely not the case at all

if anything your overall volume could come down a bit .....everything should fall under the umbrella of the ride cymbal volume wise ......take the mind state of a funk or rock player and flip it inside out ....180

but you are so on your way to becoming a fantastic jazz player

your approach to jazz playing reminded me a bit of Justin Faulkners approach

really proud of you Thaard ....for jumping out of your comfort zone and killing it in this style that I and so many of us live for

Thaard 05-14-2013 05:29 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Thanks heaps for all the feedback guys. I've sent them to my drum teacher too, so I'll hopefully get some feedback from him in tomorrows drum-lesson.

So, from what I gather I need to comp to fill in the cracks, ease on the accenting with the melody, train more vocab, groove more with the ride and give some more air. Anything else?

What I dislike most about my jazz-drumming is my solo's and fills. They are too much rooted in the chopsy/funk/fusion spectrum of drumming. Hopefully, they will come with experience and vocab practicing.

8Mile 05-14-2013 06:13 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Man, you are killin' it!

You may be new to the music but you're obviously picking things up quickly. I can tell you've done your homework listening to a lot of jazz. That's the most important piece of advice I could give. The more you do that, the more ideas for solos you'll come up with. Learning transcriptions of solos played by the masters, or even just watching them live/on video, can be a real eye-opener.

I would echo others and just say I think the most helpful thing is shifting focus to the feel of the ride. How you play the ride is your personal signature and it is where the groove resides in jazz. It's the equivalent of backbeat and bass drum placement in rock/funk/fusion. It's what determines whether the music feels solid and makes the band feel good or makes everyone nervous and uncertain.

I like how you are already varying the spang-a-lang pattern, playing just quarters at times. That's a bit more advanced. The main thing there is to make sure to vary the ride pattern and leave notes out because you choose to, not because of any coordinative limitations with keeping the 55 going.

Keep on keepin' on, Thaard. Very, very impressive. I sincerely doubt you'll need to wait a year to post updated clips. You're just a really talented musician and you're learning very fast.

Anthony Amodeo 05-14-2013 08:26 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaard (Post 1140113)
Thanks heaps for all the feedback guys. I've sent them to my drum teacher too, so I'll hopefully get some feedback from him in tomorrows drum-lesson.

So, from what I gather I need to comp to fill in the cracks, ease on the accenting with the melody, train more vocab, groove more with the ride and give some more air. Anything else?

What I dislike most about my jazz-drumming is my solo's and fills. They are too much rooted in the chopsy/funk/fusion spectrum of drumming. Hopefully, they will come with experience and vocab practicing.

Thaard please know that all my critiques are some nit picky shit and I only share it because I see an abnormal amount of potential in your playing

as for the solo type vocab....that stuff will come in time ....through listening ....and in my opinion transcribing

I have a fantastic For Big Sid transcription that I have pulled endless amounts of vocabulary from for many years that I could send you ....it would be a really great start to feeling that classic vocabulary

first I learned it note for note....had a blast doing it by the way
then I broke it down to the licks I liked most
I then altered some of them to fit my tendencies and slightly modernized them ......and use them to this day

I feel it is important to learn the classic vocab before approaching the more contemporary vocab of Ari Hoenig , Brian Blade, Eric Harland, Justin Faulkner ...and guys like that .....all those guys modernize classic vocabulary

here is Justin Varnes youtube page....he is in the middle of something he calls "52 licks"
he puts out a lick a week that he borrows from some of the greats and tells you the tune he got it from so you can go listen and pull your own inspiration from ....each one really good to learn....and it is all simple stuff but very affective
http://www.youtube.com/user/JazzDrummersResource


here also is a guy named Tim Metz youtube page....also a great resource for some nice vocabulary
http://www.youtube.com/user/tim481

hit me up with your email address if you want that Max Roach transcription I mentioned earlier

I want to do everything I possibly can to help you because I really admire what you are doing and highly respect your playing ability

8Mile 05-14-2013 11:14 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo (Post 1140149)
here is Justin Varnes youtube page....he is in the middle of something he calls "52 licks"
he puts out a lick a week that he borrows from some of the greats and tells you the tune he got it from so you can go listen and pull your own inspiration from ....each one really good to learn....and it is all simple stuff but very affective
http://www.youtube.com/user/JazzDrummersResource


here also is a guy named Tim Metz youtube page....also a great resource for some nice vocabulary
http://www.youtube.com/user/tim481

Thanks for sharing this, this is great. I'm gonna work these.

Numberless 05-15-2013 02:42 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Jazz Drummer's Resource is seriously great, ridiculously hip licks that are super simple and easy to apply and make your own, everyone here should be checking Justin out!

BacteriumFendYoke 05-15-2013 02:51 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
I'm not a great player of Jazz, I am an avid listener and fan though.

Your progress is remarkable. I can't add any more than others have already said. Suffice to say, I'm very impressed.

Further - I love your attitude with regards to playing the same pieces in a year to show progression. So many players forget that the subtle changes are what really matter with Jazz and instead of trying to play 'harder songs' (which is the prevailing method I see most of the time) you're going to take your approach and mature it with similar material. In improvisational music this is a great idea and I'm really impressed with your attitude.

keep it simple 05-15-2013 11:15 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Thaardy my man, so good to see you posting your amazing playing here again. I find your journey fascinating, although you probably just regard it as bloody hard work. Are you still working at the studio?

You know me well enough to know I'm in no position to offer any critique whatsoever. Let's just leave it that I enjoy your playing immensely, & I know that you'll succeed in your endeavours. It's difficult to see how someone with your talent coupled to your work ethic can do anything other than reach your goals.

Truly great stuff, & I await the next chapter with interest (maybe the return of the curtain?)

Andy.

Thaard 05-15-2013 11:43 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keep it simple (Post 1140514)
Thaardy my man, so good to see you posting your amazing playing here again. I find your journey fascinating, although you probably just regard it as bloody hard work. Are you still working at the studio?

You know me well enough to know I'm in no position to offer any critique whatsoever. Let's just leave it that I enjoy your playing immensely, & I know that you'll succeed in your endeavours. It's difficult to see how someone with your talent coupled to your work ethic can do anything other than reach your goals.

Truly great stuff, & I await the next chapter with interest (maybe the return of the curtain?)

Andy.

Hey andy. Thanks, and no, I've quit the studio job(quit as in they didn't have enough money, so they let go of the new guys). So, I'm moving to a bigger city this summer. Hopefully playing with some more people.

jodgey4 05-22-2013 07:53 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo (Post 1140103)
I agree with this

....and jodgey4 mentioned that your snare needs to be louder.....which is absolutely not the case at all

if anything your overall volume could come down a bit .....everything should fall under the umbrella of the ride cymbal volume wise ......take the mind state of a funk or rock player and flip it inside out ....180

I have ego problems or something like that because I feel like I need to defend myself... sorry.
The second part of that was verbatim advice I gave to a friend today on jazz drumming. I should have been more clear about what I meant... in the recording, the lower tuned snare is a bit muddy, and I wanted to hear what he was playing. To add presence in this situation, the only option other than tuning (which I won't tell him how to do) would be to create an artificial raised presence of snare by raising the volume ~5%.
But in the end you are right; I should've kept my mouth shut. The balance was pretty pro, just like your playing. Anthony is much more qualified than I to make suggestions!

Toolate 05-22-2013 11:53 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Jazz is like Chinese to me (a foreign language that I dont get and might never) but I did watch your video and the one thing that I kept waiting for you to change is your R hand grip when playing the ride. It just looks a little uncomfortable to me to have the hand open like that (palm up) and seems like you maybe use a little, tiny, miniscule, bit more energy when you play and have to turn it over to go to the hats or snare or anwhere else.

I am all for whatever grip works- dont get me wrong and I am nervous about even commenting here amongst the big dogs but I did notice it. Might just be that you only play the ride that way that seems odd to me.

Keep it up anyway. Sounds great and so relaxed.

Thaard 05-23-2013 12:30 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toolate (Post 1142656)
Jazz is like Chinese to me (a foreign language that I dont get and might never) but I did watch your video and the one thing that I kept waiting for you to change is your R hand grip when playing the ride. It just looks a little uncomfortable to me to have the hand open like that (palm up) and seems like you maybe use a little, tiny, miniscule, bit more energy when you play and have to turn it over to go to the hats or snare or anwhere else.

I am all for whatever grip works- dont get me wrong and I am nervous about even commenting here amongst the big dogs but I did notice it. Might just be that you only play the ride that way that seems odd to me.

Keep it up anyway. Sounds great and so relaxed.

I'm using french grip with some moeller. Haven't had any problems with it. I'm working on loosening my grip though, to get a better sound.

Toolate 05-24-2013 03:07 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
your sound is pretty good man.

Thaard 07-06-2014 11:05 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Tune 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vf5gRTyq4s

Tune 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfMzmkfL2qQ

Tune 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L87Lwpygl0

Tune 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhrkW22Ef6E

Done!

keep it simple 07-06-2014 11:56 AM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Fabulous!!!! As you know, I've nothing to offer by way of credible observation or advice. All I can offer from my simple rock brain perspective is it all sounds pretty damn fine to me. I especially like tune 3. Even the fast opening fills played at low dynamic tells me you "get it".

Always in admiration my Nordic friend :)

Andy.

8Mile 07-06-2014 06:44 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
You have made great progress. Really impressive and I find it quite inspiring.

Question: In this past year of study, did you find yourself developing a passion for the music or was it simply a matter of conquering something you wanted to get better at?

Swiss Matthias 07-06-2014 08:06 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Hi, I don't want to sound critical, don't get me wrong, just curious: Did you work mostly
out of John Riley's book(s), or did you study certain drummers, albums or tunes? If so,
which?

Oh, and good job with the play-alongs, too! To give a honest feedback, I don't think it
sounds like pure jazz playing of a traditional jazzer, but I mean it's a matter of how you
want it to sound, and a matter of where you started of course.

Thaard 07-06-2014 08:53 PM

Re: Thaard's one year jazz-drumming study.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keep it simple (Post 1273997)
Fabulous!!!! As you know, I've nothing to offer by way of credible observation or advice. All I can offer from my simple rock brain perspective is it all sounds pretty damn fine to me. I especially like tune 3. Even the fast opening fills played at low dynamic tells me you "get it".

Always in admiration my Nordic friend :)

Andy.

Thanks Andy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8Mile (Post 1274060)
You have made great progress. Really impressive and I find it quite inspiring.

Question: In this past year of study, did you find yourself developing a passion for the music or was it simply a matter of conquering something you wanted to get better at?

At first I wanted to get into jazz-studies, but after a while I came to the conclusion that it wasn't for me, so now I'm going into music production/composition. That said, jazz definitely helped me with my groove/swing and independence. I've also discovered a lot of good jazz musicians and hidden gems in records.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias (Post 1274081)
Hi, I don't want to sound critical, don't get me wrong, just curious: Did you work mostly
out of John Riley's book(s), or did you study certain drummers, albums or tunes? If so,
which?

Oh, and good job with the play-alongs, too! To give a honest feedback, I don't think it
sounds like pure jazz playing of a traditional jazzer, but I mean it's a matter of how you
want it to sound, and a matter of where you started of course.

I started out with the john riley book, but soon discarded it and did my own thing instead. I studied a lot of jazz drummers, especially Tony Williams, Bill Stewart and Ari Hoenig.

"Pure jazz" is in the ears of the beholder. No one could believe what Tony and Elvin played when they started dishing out in their hay-days. I'm just doing my own thing, and people can listen to it however they want.


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