Is the push pull technique allowed in the WFD single stroke competitions?

J

Jay Johnson

Member
I just saw this video of Zac Sullivan breaking Manginis 1247 record by playing 1325 bpm. He used the push pull technique to achieve this.

With push pull making use of the up stroke, ones bpm is almost doubled. Would WFD allow the moeller technique also if someone alternated the beats? Does WFD have a standard on what they consider a true single stroke?

This dude is blazing heres his vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSHAgx1BZnA&NR=1

Here is an article about him, in which Boo Mcaffee gives him props. http://m.courierpress.com/news/2010/nov/15/speed/?partner=yahoo_headlines

What say y'all?
 
There was a recent thread where I asked a similar question on what is and what's not acceptable in the WFD. The only thing stipulated in the rules on the WFD site, mention alternating singles, but no mention of the techniques allowed to acheive it. Hopefully this time round we'll get the skinny......there's a few particpants in the WFD who frequent this site.

As for Zac, he's a member here.....I'm sure he'll be along shortly to answer anything you'd like to throw at him.
 
Yes, it is! I have a certificate from my first WFD victory. Also, Boo McAfee himself told me at the next "offiicial" WFD my official score will be ranked. My left Hand is purely moeller anyway (in 2s as oppose to 3s). The rules simply call for single strokes which they define as RLRLRL (no bounces, peresses, or buzzes). Nard defines a single stroke roll as individual strokes with alternate sticking. Either way I'm in accordance. Pushpull is basically moeller in 2s as well. I'll make a clip demonstrating. Besides, why shouldn't it be? It's not like it is easier. This technique takes some time to develop. It's not like rim rolls or using both sides of each stick or something. If you go to YouTube you can read comments left by Johnny Rabb and Eric Okamoto on my clips. Thanks guys and wish me luck!
 
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Jay Johnson said:
I just saw this video of Zac Sullivan breaking Manginis 1247 record by playing 1325 bpm. He used the push pull technique to achieve this.

With push pull making use of the up stroke, ones bpm is almost doubled. Would WFD allow the moeller technique also if someone alternated the beats? Does WFD have a standard on what they consider a true single stroke?

This dude is blazing heres his vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSHAgx1BZnA&NR=1

Here is an article about him, in which Boo Mcaffee gives him props. http://m.courierpress.com/news/2010/nov/15/speed/?partner=yahoo_headlines

What say y'all?
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Haha 1,329*. Also, no technique that I know of can make it possible to double the BPM achieved by other WFD competitors with varied techniques. You'd be talking 2,200 + singles which is bananas. Thanks for the kind words buddie!! Again, all I'm really doing is Moeller in 2s. Thanks! Edit: You bet Jay! I definitely feel it is a much a healthier technique (in my case pair of techniques due to the traditional grip) than what we have seen in the past. I still am very careful. You really have to be able to distinguish between the burn and the pain. It burns in the forearms and even up the biceps. I wanted to add that no matter what technique(s) one employs if your going for 1,000 + BPM singles you just have to work your but off!! I think any WFD competitor will agree. Lots of smart hours logged doing fundamentals with a metronome.
 
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No matter what technique: you guys do a great job.

Good, when exact rules will be etablished - different catergories probably.


Bernhard
 
Bernhard said:
No matter what technique: you guys do a great job.

Good, when exact rules will be etablished - different catergories probably.


Bernhard
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Wow, an honor to hear from you, Bernhard! Thank you for the compliment. I know us speed demons are a little odd but we mean well :). I'd like to gratify your post with a video response. As soon as I return home I'll upload. Again, thanks for commenting in this thread!
 
thatoneguy said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elkx_Vm9Oiw

Bernhard, please watch! I hope this helps and I was happy to make it!
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Hey man, I liked that video. You managed to express your point of view with a lot of confidence and quite some attitude but without being cocky. I also want to say that I have a ton of respect for what you have achieved so far with this technique. Allthough I absolutely do not care about who the worlds fastest drummer is, I must say that I find this pretty fascinating and also quite usable in musical situations (as guys like JoJo Mayer or Steve Smith demonstrate quite often).

When I watched JoJos DVD for the first time and he played singles with this technique (Moeller like techniques in both hands, just like you are doing it) I was intrigued to actually work on it for some time but I never had the stamina and will to go through with it (also because I never need it in my band playing) but I thought: If someone would really go for it, there would lie a great potential for some real speed... So congrats on what you've achieved and this comes from a guy who can probably understand at least to some degree just how much work this must have been.
 
SickRick said:
Hey man, I liked that video. You managed to express your point of view with a lot of confidence and quite some attitude but without being cocky. I also want to say that I have a ton of respect for what you have achieved so far with this technique. Allthough I absolutely do not care about who the worlds fastest drummer is, I must say that I find this pretty fascinating and also quite usable in musical situations (as guys like JoJo Mayer or Steve Smith demonstrate quite often).

When I watched JoJos DVD for the first time and he played singles with this technique (Moeller like techniques in both hands, just like you are doing it) I was intrigued to actually work on it for some time but I never had the stamina and will to go through with it (also because I never need it in my band playing) but I thought: If someone would really go for it, there would lie a great potential for some real speed... So congrats on what you've achieved and this comes from a guy who can probably understand at least to some degree just how much work this must have been.
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Thanks, rick! Thanks for watching and for the positive feedback. Happy holidays!
 
Zac, other than soloing, do you use your singles technique during the course of your regular drumset playing?
 
thatoneguy said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elkx_Vm9Oiw

Bernhard, please watch! I hope this helps and I was happy to make it!
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Thanks for posting the video man. I really haven't been following the WFD but I'm really amazed at the technique you guys have. Especially that left hand technique of yours. I'm trying to learn Moeller and I think I've got the motions down for the Right hand but the left is really giving me troubles. I play traditional like you and I can't seem to get that whipping motion on the left.
 
larryace said:
Zac, other than soloing, do you use your singles technique during the course of your regular drumset playing?
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Larry, you bet buddy! I groove with these techniques all the time. It is the funnest thing ever! Uptempo Jazz, swing, 16ths, 32nds, hats, ride, etc. Haha time for another video already? Also I've been using some massive marching sticks lately :)
 
I'll add that even at moderate tempos I can employ these techniques for some
Intricate left handed snare work while my right keeps time, for fills (either or both hands), stick/rim tricks... Also not just singles. Great for doubles, paradiddles. Pretty much whatever you want to do. It doesn't have to be high speed to use these techniques either. You don't wear out with them. Very efficient way to play.
 
Mr. Larryace,
Hey bud! You have probably seen this. In case you haven't, here's a clip of the !great! John Riley utilizing a similar technique for upbeat ride patterns. His technique here is the Almost the same thing that Johnny Rabb does. Rabb's is called the "3 bomb" and allegedly he can do it with both hands alternating at crazy speeds (rlrlrlrl) but there is bounce or free stroke involved. It consists of 3 strokes. A conscious wrist stroke (whip, handwhip, whatever you want to call it), a bounce stroke, and then another conscious wrist stroke (collect). What I am doing only involves 2 strokes. Both generated by my wrist (moeller in 2s) with both hands. Believe it or not, my technique allows me to play this swme pattern faster and more pronounced than John in this clip. I believe it is because each one of my strokes is a conscious stroke. The 3 bomb envolves a free or bounce stroke in the middle. Still, this is a cool clip and I will post you my version of it at a faster tempo. Sound good?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnrileyuptemporide.mp4
 
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Also, I hate to correct John Riley. But it is necessary in this situation. In his clip he states he is throwing the stick on beats 2 and 4 of the traditional swing pattern. He meant to say beats 2 and 5. In my case (moeller in 2s), I'm throwing 1, 3, and 5 or 2, 4, and 6 because because I only alternate between conscious wrist strokes. He has a free bounce stroke between his consciousnerist strokes. I can limit my singles to my fingers onky (no wrist at all) and go crazy fast, too. But that offers no power. Therefore no real apllicaion on a drum or drum set.
 
thatoneguy said:
Also, I hate to correct John Riley. But it is necessary in this situation. In his clip he states he is throwing the stick on beats 2 and 4 of the traditional swing pattern. He meant to say beats 2 and 5.
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I think you're talking about two different things. You're counting the notes you're actually playing with the stroke but he's talking about the "2 and 4" of the bar line in that feel.
 
8Mile said:
I think you're talking about two different things. You're counting the notes you're actually playing with the stroke but he's talking about the "2 and 4" of the bar line in that feel.
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No. He explains one thing and then does another. He shows at one point a dropcatch, pushpull, moeller in 2s, whatever you want to call it. But when he plays the uptempo groove (traditional swing: 1 2 34 5 61 2 34 5 61.) he is doing a drop, bounce, catch, type stroke. If he was doing it the drop catch or throwing on 2 and 4 like he said it would be throwing on 2, 4, and 6 or 1, 3, and 5. He is throwing on 2, bounce or free stroke 3, up conscious wrist stroke on 4, throwing on 5, bounce or free stroke on 6, up conscious wrist stroke on 1, repeat.) I'm sure accidentally mispoke.
 
thatoneguy said:
No. He explains one thing and then does another. He shows at one point a dropcatch, pushpull, moeller in 2s, whatever you want to call it. But when he plays the uptempo groove (traditional swing: 1 2 34 5 61 2 34 5 61.) he is doing a drop, bounce, catch, type stroke. If he was doing it the drop catch or throwing on 2 and 4 like he said it would be throwing on 2, 4, and 6 or 1, 3, and 5. He is throwing on 2, bounce or free stroke 3, up conscious wrist stroke on 4, throwing on 5, bounce or free stroke on 6, up conscious wrist stroke on 1, repeat.) I'm sure accidentally mispoke.
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I don't think so. There are no 5 and 6 in the type of time he's talking about. He's talking about 2 and 4 in the "1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a" sense. 4 quarter notes to the bar with the beginning of his stroke on 2 and 4. You're counting the notes being played in the triplet.

You guys are just talking about two different things.
 
8Mile said:
I don't think so. There are no 5 and 6 in the type of time he's talking about. He's talking about 2 and 4 in the "1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a" sense. 4 quarter notes to the bar with the beginning of his stroke on 2 and 4. You're counting the notes being played in the triplet.

You guys are just talking about two different things.
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In the beginning of the clip he clearly states he is counting the pattern 1 2 34 5 61. Clearly. He then states he throws the stick on the 2 an 4. He meant to say 2 and 5. Watch when he plays the uptempo swing pattern and count for yourself. Remember he starts on 2. Thanks, buddy!
 
thatoneguy said:
In the beginning of the clip he clearly states he is counting the pattern 1 2 34 56. Clearly. He then states he throws the stick on the 2 an 4. He meant to say 2 and 5. Watch when he plays the uptempo swing pattern and count for yourself. Remember he starts on 2. Thanks, buddy!
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That's not the same thing he's talking about when he says he starts the stroke on 2 and 4. I agree the way he starts out makes it kind of confusing. But I think he's just reverting to music notation terms. In jazz timekeeping, with a triplet feel, the notes are counted:

1 2 and 3 4 and 1, etc.

He's starting the stroke on the 2 and the 4. That's because with that phrasing, the dotted eighth notes with the triplet feel are between 2 and 3 and then 4 and 1.

Don't take my word for it, though; ask around.
 
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