More Creative on a Smaller Kit

[gf2564]

Although it's true that restricting choices forces creativity, exercising voices choice, is in itself, a creative move. It's how it's presented within the music that matters, not the mechanism employed to do so. There's an air of snobbery surrounding this subject (intentional or otherwise) that I find deeply unattractive.[/QUOTE]

I have also felt this "attitude" every time this topic comes up. I started playing on a four piece in the '60's and have gone up to as much as 8-9 piece and everything in between. I have finally settled on a six piece with two up two down and have stayed there for the last 10+ years. It is an individual comfort level thing and one that everyone must decide for themselves.

Once I "matured" as a player, I have never felt that one set up was more creative than another. For the life of me I don't understand why it has to be an either/or proposition. My experience is that it is just different creativity, not more or less!

 

[JohnnyG]

I'll ask Terry Bozzio when I go to see him next month. He seems to be a creative guy.

 

[whiteknightx]

and what's up with using two drumsticks. You have to be more creative if you just use one.

 

[MikeM]

Every so often a big-kit drummer posts how they tried playing on a smaller kit and felt more creative while doing it. The general consensus is that the size of the kit caused the creativity. I think that misses a more general observation. This drummer is playing on a substantially different kit than what he or she is used to. Give the guy with fly swatters and a cardboard box a four piece, and he'll feel the same way.
YES
You can dig yourself into a creativity rut just as easily on a small kit as with a big kit. The same drummer playing the same drums and cymbals is probably going to play the same things. Real creativity requires more effort than just getting rid of a few extra pieces. It comes from listening to different music. Try to copy different things you hear. Play different styles of music. Play a different instrument. Learn to dance. Work on rudiments. In essence, creativity comes best just outside your comfort zone. Stray too far, and you'll be too intimidated to develop good ideas. Stay too close, and you won't see the need. The big kit drummer trying a small kit is just outside the comfort zone.
Beautifully put.

What can inspire creativity is the transition from large kit to small kit - or vice versa - rather than the size of the kit itself...

Zactly! In the early '90s, my main kit was a 2 up 2 down 6 piece but I was also playing in another band, which was a two-drummer project and and I put together a little 4-piece frankenkit for it. This was where I first noticed this effect of kit size on my playing choices. Soon after I switched to a 1 up 2 down, and a couple months ago went back to a 4 piece in an effort to recapture that small kit vibe ... and okay, I admit it: part of it was 'retaliation' for a pointy 5-string bass tucked up under dude's chin! Ha ha! But seriously, some of this stuff is just plain 'ole vibe and aesthetics.

Speaking of which:

Let's take a closely associated instrument - bass guitar. Do I pick up less by way of creativity from contrabass players such as Anthony Jackson? Perhaps 5 string players are really just covering up their own inadequacies? Maybe the most creative bass player uses an instrument with 1 string. Of course, non of this is true. Bass players, just like drummers, make appropriate choices of instrument based on the gig at hand and how they wish to be represented within the music. By making such choices, it doesn't automatically mean they're less creative.

Again, I don't care for 5 string basses. I have two 4-bangers that I really like, but I get why people like their 5s, and the most cited reason is that having the low B there allows them to "stay in the box" more without having to move up and down the neck as much or change fingering. But I dunno, it changes the vibe and puts it in a place I'm not crazy about...

I don't know about one string, though; that might be taking it a bit far ... although, there is this guy! (a must-see)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8H-67ILaqcv

Although it's true that restricting choices forces creativity, exercising voices choice, is in itself, a creative move. It's how it's presented within the music that matters, not the mechanism employed to do so. There's an air of snobbery surrounding this subject (intentional or otherwise) that I find deeply unattractive.

There's an air of snobbery around a whole host of subjects, and I'm not sure I've seen that here yet. But I do think as part of these discussions, people airing their personal preferences and the reasons behind them can get contentious. Does feeling strongly about gear preferences imply snobbery? Maybe it does, but if so, I think we're all guilty to some degree.

Personally, I think playing on a large kit is a blast and played big kits for most of my first 10 years of so of playing, and as Neil Peart used to say when defending his kit size; it's all still centered around kick, snare and hats. The rest is just color.

 

[Winegums]

this is the whole point right here

if your creativity is fertile you should be able to express yourself completely on a cardboard box with a pair of brushes

the fewer the voices in front of you the more creative you are forced to be ... it truly is a beautiful thing when you can fully unleash your creativity on very few surfaces and feel like absolutely nothing is missing

I know I could express what I wanted to on a cardboard box but we play drum kits not boxes.

I disagree, I find with more drums and cymbals I have exponentially more combinations I can do on my kit. I can create a much large variety of sounds so it all doesn't sound the same. Yet I can still do everything I could on a smaller kit... since that smaller kit still exists within my larger kit.

Anyway, I suspect that the aforementioned "hole in my voice" is more likely a hole in creative thought, and if the poster of that comment really thought about it, there are dozens of easily available options to fill that hole with less voices available.

WOW... you guys really have your noses up in the air on this subject, when you want to come back down and discuss things let me know.

 

[whiteknightx]

lol, this topic always goes the same way. The size of kit we individually like is reflected by two things as far as I can tell.

1. Musical style you play. If you are playing metal, you probably want a big kit. If you are playing jazz, a small one. Everything else is somewhere inbetween.

2. Era you grew up in when you decided to take up the drums. 50's and 60s were small 4 piece kits. 70's and 80's were monster kits. 90's - today alternative rock brought back the 4 piece. We'll probably enter a cycle where bigger kits start to come back soon.

Yes I can play with my country band on my 4 piece set just fine. When I play with my rock band, I like to use a 6 piece so that the 70's songs we do, I can play the fills like the record. I don't believe one or the other makes me a better drummer. I'm the drummer I am no matter what size set I'm sitting behind.

 

[dmacc_2]

At the end of the day we are all here to create music. If you find it helpful to have 60 pieces to make that happen - use 60 pieces. If you find you can do it with 4 - use 4.

So many legends have played on various sized kits. In doing so, I don't think they were any less of a player on a larger setup.

Chances are we all have been in the mode of using various set ups. It was driven be various influences up to and including mood.

Make music with whatever you feel like using. You're no less or more of a better musician based solely on the number of voices you have at your disposal. Your musicianship will be or should be based on many other factors before the number of drums or cymbals.

 

[Dr_Watso]

WOW... you guys really have your noses up in the air on this subject, when you want to come back down and discuss things let me know.

No need to get uppity. It wasn't an insult, and you said it yourself, you felt constricted and didn't know what to do when a voice was missing. Firstly, this means that you're relying on certain gear to play your best, I find that as a negative. Secondly, it means that you're thinking too much about that specific gear as you play if the lack of it is a playing detraction. My statement was true. Rather than feeling limited by the lack of that one voice, you could have just opened your mind a bit and thought of another way to fill the space. Sure, you have to use a little creativity, it's going to sound different and still needs to fit. The idea here is that the base of the song and the rhythms are the important part.

This has nothing to do with magical automatic creativity because the kit is smaller. It simply forces your brain into new ways of thinking and gets you to solve problems in different ways. I am most comfortable on either a 3 or 4 piece, but I often times temporarily take away all the toms and most of the cymbals, just to make myself think in new ways for the same spaces. I put the toms back usually, but I've learned a lot by limiting my options and solving the same problems.

Macgyver didn't let a lack of the usual tools get in his way, he simply got creative and solved the problems in a different way. We should all find the time to go Macgyver all over our music, at least once in a while.

 

[Larry]

Creativity....for me conjures up an image of one person trying out different ideas. Because if they are truly creative, those ideas are off the cuff, so that one "creative" thing you just did is unproven. It might work and it might not. Why take the chance is my attitude. Creativity does not automatically mean that whatever you "create" will work well. Creativity to me comes from the conscious mind, which is the one thing I try to silence when I'm up there. If a drummer's "creativity" is stinking the place up...it's a detriment not an asset.

On the surface creativity sounds great but up on the bandstand, I definitely don't consciously attempt to be creative. There's no time. I am listening and reacting to what is already happening around me. I have all the input I need. I guess some could call that creative, I tend to think of it as more reactive. I'm fairly certain that there is a big difference between creativity and reactivity.

I remember trying to be "creative" on the bandstand in the very beginning. Instead of doing straight 8's with my stick on a closed hi hat, I tried to substitute 8th note hi hat "chicks" instead. Yea that didn't work too well and I even caught some guff over it. It went like this. "What was that you were doing during such and such part?" Me: "Oh I had an idea and wanted to see if it would work". Him: "Do me a favor and don't do that anymore OK?"

So instead of listening to my own solitary "creativity", I decided it's best for me to ditch that mindset and instead listen deeper and try and be a predictor of things to come rather than inventing stuff out of the blue that is rooted only in my own ideas, rather than the ideas surrounding me.

Creativity is a human thing and has zero to do with the amount of inanimate objects in front of you. I contend that a person is equally creative no matter what size kit is being played. Playing a kit with less voices doesn't make a person more creative, it merely forces a person to make substitutions and/or omissions. In my mind, there is no extra creativity going on, it's more like adapting to different circumstances. if that's considered creative, I'd say the bar is pretty low.

Real creativity belongs in the song writing process.

All of this is JMO.

 

[WhoIsTony?]

we play drum kits not boxes.

ok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-bok6Plo7c

 

[Duckenheimer]

I know I could express what I wanted to on a cardboard box but we play drum kits not boxes.

I disagree, I find with more drums and cymbals I have exponentially more combinations I can do on my kit. I can create a much large variety of sounds so it all doesn't sound the same. Yet I can still do everything I could on a smaller kit... since that smaller kit still exists within my larger kit.

Nobody disputes the bolded.

However while one can still do everything you can already do on a smaller kit, one may not necessarily be spending as much time with the smaller kit and learning to play that as well. In other words; spending time working out these exponentially more combinations of different drums is less time working out exponentially more combinations of different tones and four way-rhythms from the fewer voices (which requires more technique, and four way co-ordination). And the latter may translate much more to the former than vice versa.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this; but it can and does have its downsides depending on how it affects a player's approach. This is why it's important for example, for drummers (at least those who want to reach a high level) to isolate the snare drum so much. It's why the guy who pulls a ride cymbal out on its own and plays on it for an hour or two every day swings harder than the guys who don't.

There's nothing wrong with big kits, just like there's nothing wrong with having dozens of drum books, or the guy learning a music style who does research and buys himself hundreds of albums. They can be used to magnificent effect. On my last gig I used an 9-piece with god knows how many cymbals. It was great; I would have loved to have three rototoms in there.

But with a lot of drums, a lot of drum books, a lot of albums; there are very real downfalls to all these things. There is such thing as being more thinly spread in what you're learning and doing - this is much more important for lesser players; but still a conceptual reality for masters too.

It takes a long time just to become a decent, rounded musician on a four piece; especially with the limited practise time most guys have; a lot of guys spending time learning combinations only possible on a big kit are slowing that fundamental progress down - let alone in new areas of creativity. There are guys who worry about getting six different tones from six different drums in a roll who can't play a consistent rimshot at different dynamic levels; and it's very tempting to fall into this when you have it all in front of you. None of this affects how guys like Bozzio etc. use big kits masterfully; is hating on big kits or big kit players; it's just a reality of what goes on.

More choice (ie all big kit drummers have a small kit inside the big kit) does not, in practise = all the choices the restricted guys have and more. The sum just doesn't quite work like that in reality.

 

[Winegums]

it means that you're thinking too much about that specific gear as you play if the lack of it is a playing detraction. My statement was true. Rather than feeling limited by the lack of that one voice, you could have just opened your mind a bit and thought of another way to fill the space. Sure, you have to use a little creativity, it's going to sound different and still needs to fit. The idea here is that the base of the song and the rhythms are the important part.

This has nothing to do with magical automatic creativity because the kit is smaller. It simply forces your brain into new ways of thinking and gets you to solve problems in different ways. I am most comfortable on either a 3 or 4 piece, but I often times temporarily take away all the toms and most of the cymbals, just to make myself think in new ways for the same spaces. I put the toms back usually, but I've learned a lot by limiting my options and solving the same problems.

If you're going to have a debate/ discussion don't contradict yourself. First you say I'm thinking too much because I have too big of a kit, then you say I would have to think more on a smaller kit. Make up your mind...

I argue I'm being just as creative on my big kit when I'm playing metal as I am on a small kit playing blues. I enjoy both equally, but they're very different roles on the drum kit so of course my equipment should change. If I was to play rock, country, folk, blues etc. my kit would scale down, the sonic range that needs to be covered is much less.

When I'm playing Metal the drums are in your face and I command as big a spot as the guitars/bass and singer. The drums aren't just the base of the song or just rhythm, I'm playing lead parts with the guitars and bass through out the song.

When I play in my blues/rock band I typically don't even use my lowest floor tom, my middle crash, splashes, aux hat or china. Because I want to be more creative? No, because the sounds don't fit the genre. You don't use a sledge hammer to hang a picture and you don't use a tack hammer to drive a spike.



When I said a voice was missing on my kit I meant it in the same way that an orchestra would sound empty without the horns or the violins. Would the song sound simliar? Yes it would, but would it sound how the composer wanted it to be? probably not.

If you have to remove parts of your drum kit to see new patterns and think in new ways than you've got problems. I don't need to take things off my kit to limit the size of it, I just mentally cut out those pieces on the kit and don't use them. Pretty simple right?

Being creative IMO has nothing to do with your kit and everything to do with your mind.

cre-a-tiv-i-ty
noun
2.
the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations, etc.; originality, progressiveness, or imagination:
"the need for creativity in modern industry; creativity in the performing arts."

 

[Brian]

If you have to remove parts of your drum kit to see new patterns and think in new ways than you've got problems.

Really??? I may as well quit...and seek help.

 

[Duckenheimer]

If you're going to have a debate/ discussion don't contradict yourself. First you say I'm thinking too much because I have too big of a kit, then you say I would have to think more on a smaller kit. Make up your mind...

His argument was not "you're thinking too much" full stop.

He is saying that you're thinking too much about a thing (the specific gear you play), when the thinking would be better spent on another thing (what you could do to fill a space while restricted). Which of course is perfectly consistent/not contradictory.

 

[Dr_Watso]

Real creativity belongs in the song writing process.

All of this is JMO.

I would have a hard time disagreeing more. You're actually highlighting the main challenge and why limitation is so beneficial. You have to solve the exact same problem, with less. In other words, what you play still has to fit and enhance or at least be a integral part of the music itself. As you showed, being creative with something that doesn't really fit the music or the musician's idea of the song doesn't improve anything. However, utilizing different voices to play a fill that you've played the same way for years, as an example, can come out really refreshing, and usually when you're working with less, you also tend to put in less. You're more likely to use the space between the notes as a valuable resource than insert more notes.

Another aspect of this is that I think sometimes, certain music is less receptive to anything new or different. There's a reason a lot of blues is just standard shuffles and reliable (maybe even cliche) down the kit fills. And make no mistake, I love playing the blues, it's just that there's often less room to stretch out, and that's fine.

 

[Duckenheimer]

Being creative IMO has nothing to do with your kit and everything to do with your mind.

I'd say it has a lot to do with the time spent on a particular thing/set of things. Practically speaking - in the real world; the size of a kit will tend to affect how someone approaches this. If one approaches it well, power to them. There is however a real tendency to approach things worse/become more thinly spread/explore things with less depth as easy options increase. From the vast amount of drum instructional information out there, to the size of your album collection, etc.

 

[Larry]

At the root of our statements Watso is the inherent belief that orchestrating your fills with less voices...

Your belief is that it's creative and my belief is that it's adaptation, talking about going from big to small only here..

Playing your fills with different voices than you normally do....it's still the same fill essentially, so in my mind it's not THAT creative, it's just orchestrated differently. Which is slightly creative but not awesomely creative.

Being creative and adapting to different circumstances are 2 separate things, with some overlap.

Again, JMO.

 

[Dr_Watso]

I'd say it has a lot to do with the time spent on a particular thing/set of things. Practically speaking - in the real world; the size of a kit will tend to affect how someone approaches this. If one approaches it well, power to them. There is however a real tendency to approach things worse as easy options increase.

Yea. Drums are fun. It's fun to have a ton of different sounds to mess around with. For me, and I think most drummers, having a ton of stuff there is a huge temptation. For me, and a lot of people, not having the red button in front of them is easier than having it and not pressing the button. Having a cool sound in front of us makes our brain want to find a place to use it. The same creative mind that loves using all the available tones I can dream up on a 4 piece will do the same thing with every additional thing I add to the kit. I've seen guys add a cowbell to their kit, and then all of a sudden, they find places in the music to use it where they didn't before. It's natural, and having it there, you don't really get to choose weather or not you think about it.

 

[Winegums]

His argument was not "you're thinking too much" full stop.

He is saying that you're thinking too much about a thing (the specific gear you play), when the thinking would be better spent on another thing (what you could do to fill a space while restricted). Which of course is perfectly consistent/not contradictory.

I'm not thinking about the gear I play I'm thinking about what the music requires me do to. If it calls for being more diverse with the number of sounds I need then so be it. I'd be compromising and lowering the quality of the music if I didn't play what I thought the song needed.

I'd say it has a lot to do with the time spent on a particular thing/set of things. Practically speaking - in the real world; the size of a kit will tend to affect how someone approaches this. If one approaches it well, power to them. There is however a real tendency to approach things worse/become more thinly spread/explore things with less depth as easy options increase. From the vast amount of drum instructional information out there, to the size of your album collection, etc.

There's no creativity in mastering a set of tools, the creative part is making something unique with the tools. Some use less, some use more. I'm not arguing that a larger kit or a smaller kit is better I'm trying to say that the definition of creativity is being confused with creative focus.

 

[Larry]

Another aspect of this is that I think sometimes, certain music is less receptive to anything new or different. There's a reason a lot of blues is just standard shuffles and reliable (maybe even cliche) down the kit fills. And make no mistake, I love playing the blues, it's just that there's often less room to stretch out, and that's fine.

On one hand you say that limitation fosters creativity. Yet you state outright that blues...there's less room to stretch out. So that should spawn creativity all over the place, right?

The one thing about this discussion that seems inherent, to me anyway, is that creativity is largely a fill thing. Which I don't subscribe to. I try and drum and use as little "drummer fills" as I can. I do stuff, but it's in response to something else, to bookend a musical statement made by someone else for example.

Drummers and their fills. Fills are not even on my list of things I focus on, but that's a personal thing. I wish drummers would look past the obvious. There's so much beyond that. Fills are not the pinnacle of a drummers playing. In fact I think they are a huge distraction that takes away focus on the more subtle aspects of music making. More opinion. Creativity is a very personal and subjective thing.